65% of the Shorthorn breeds current design is based on show heifers.
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shortyjock89
Well-known member
If the Irish mutts can be called PB and remembered fondly, then surely Red Reward can be too.
Also, I want very little to do with the Shorthorn cattle from 50 years ago. They're the reason we focused on Angus until the 90s.
Also, I want very little to do with the Shorthorn cattle from 50 years ago. They're the reason we focused on Angus until the 90s.
mark tenenbaum
Well-known member
I agree with Olson-and he has a strong track record in the show ring-which is what this thread is really about-Because :although changes are taking place the cattle would be near extiction without the showring as previously mentioned.No One is going to make every optimum phenotypical change in one generation-no bull will do that. Listen to people when they tell you why they wont touch these cattle.The first order of business is to lower the BWS-the popular show oriented bulls like some of the Red Demands Hot Commodity etc are doing that for real. Others of this tribe like Sull payday are NOT-and are hard calvers-that happens in all breeds. The second-is that they have to be physically adaptable to life as regular cows (yea who dont know that)-The phenoypes mentioned EG changing to 12-1300 pound cows that are deep ribbed etc are what we are seeing out of these show oriented newer bulls-maybe not all in one generation-but the 35 -50 daughters Ive seen of Red Demand at Stone Springs along with HIM are exactly that. Hes been run to death-and looks great-and I can promise you that Jay Benham still has some of the biggest Shorthorn cows there are.-And the Demands are thicker and way more moderate than those big cows-they had dam well better be for ANY commercial person to look twice.So with those few simple changes: the phenoype is already in motion. Sorry-its gonna take some maine or a K-kim mix to achieve this-BECAUSE THEY ALSO HAVE TO SHOW.They gotta have a butt,and look as stout as AngusxSimms etc-if that will win shows good-but it will win outsiders too.-Thats what they say to me,if you dont want to listen-or be a "purest" with so-called pure cattle (unless they go back to Enticer LOL) than you are not going to have a market outside of a very small circle. Everybody else (other breeds)proves thier cattle by showing how crossing and "improvement"-adds to the bottom line etc used on other breeds.Yes-we know that the Canadian market is great-the cattle are being used-this again-is addressing the US-where they really arent doing a whole lot. And that being said-the backbone of the most commercial cattle on the NON show side( in the US at least )is ENTICER-who had alot more maine in him than Demand-or Red Reward-or Deception etc-and is also behind the showiest "commercially oriented' available low BW deal-Hot Commodity. I reposted a triple clean Proud Jazz X Jungels cow going back to the Enticer based cattle who is showy-and who is being used by alot of commercial breeders just off a Craigs list ad-He isnt related to Red Reward or Demand very closely-But hes a very similar type-and ones that look like that-perform like that (him and the aforementioned) will get used. Every one forgot Capiche-there were alot of calves out of him. Yea Yea-before DS etc.So its not impossible-IF YOU HAVE LLEGITIMATE cattle that look like what a commercial person wants and perform the part. If they will let them stand up-and Sullivan is doing his part to bring them out :especially the crosses.Thats along with anyone who drags those cool blue roans-aint a cattle person worth a Sh567899T that doesnt respect that cross-instant brand recognition ANYWHERE. O0
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Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR
Well-known member
What is the Shorthorn breed today placed on the register and commercial cattle rank?
Shorthorns are the 8th, 10th, 12th breed on register rank?
Where is placed on commercial one?
USA and Canada please!
Shorthorns are the 8th, 10th, 12th breed on register rank?
Where is placed on commercial one?
USA and Canada please!
mark tenenbaum
Well-known member
Commercial in the US? Almost non-existant compared to other breeds-Although there may be some geogrphic differances.The Charolais influence here (Va West Va)is still very big-but you see very few purebred whites. Herefords here are also very few and far between.I would guess that there are more Angus in the states of VA and West Va than there are Shorthorns in the US. O0
justintime
Well-known member
beebe said:
When I used to sit in the buyer row at the auction marts buying cattle , you would see an occasional Shorthorn or Shorthorn cross feeder calf come through the markets. Today, there are many many more but in reality, Shorthorn influence cattle are still a minority of those selling. Here where I live in Western Canada, a good Shorthorn calf can top the market on any given day as easily as any other breed. We used to have a herd of Charolais cows as well as our Shorthorns and in the mid 80s we usually got .05-.08/ lb more for the Charolais calves. By the early 90s this had changed and our Shorthorns received a sizable premium over the Charolais. Our fat market here in Canada is based more on marbling ability and that is the main reason Shorthorns are getting more popular each year. It is a very slow process however, it is growing every year. I decided to sell off a few fall born heifers when it got dry and pasture was going to be an issue last May. They heifers were roans, born in Late November and December and freshly weaned. They averaged 538 lbs ( shrunk weight) and they sold for 3.38/ lb or a gross average of $1818 per head. They topped the market that day for heifers by over .10/ lb. It wasn't very long ago that we were very pleased to get $1800 for a good bred heifer!
Doc
Well-known member
I agree with Justin on the Red Rewards and the Hot Commodities. I haven't used Red Demand as much. The Rewards have really nice udders and do a good job of raising a calf. The HC's really come easy and then take off and grow. Not only do these cattle have some eye appeal to them, they will help on the EPD situation in a hurry and still perform.
J
JTM
Guest
I believe Red Reward and Hot Commodity are a step in the right direction for the show side of the Shorthorn breed. In the very next breathe I would say that they will never be considered legitimate commercial bulls. The ability to have a "show appeal" has zero value in the commercial industry to the commercial rancher. Do they like eye appeal and phenotype? Yeah, but what they really want are efficient cattle that are born alive and give them the most profit at their selling time. Anything that has show cattle anywhere in the visible pedigree will be cast aside as too risky because they have WAY too many other options. As Shorthorn breeders, we have to ask ourselves, "What can we offer the commercial rancher that they don't already have?". Well if we are going to offer them something they don't have we sure better be able to offer them everything they expect as a minimum! Then what they don't have will be the bonuses the Shorthorn breed can provide. Mothering ability, heterosis, marbling, etc. In my opinion these large boned growthy Shorthorn bulls are not in position to do that. I am having a real hard time finding Shorthorn genetics that I am comfortable adding at this point. I don't want to go backwards and neither do the commercial breeders of the country.Doc said:
librarian
Well-known member
It's been raining so these topics get more attention than they deserve, perhaps- But
I'm pretty sure most of these show heifers we're ganging up on are Shorthorn Plus- which are just grade cattle.
Definition: (http://www.memidex.com/grade+cattle)
a variety of cattle produced by crossbreeding with a superior breed
So if we are talking about Shorthorns (the superior breed <beer>) then why not talk about Shorthorns instead of mixtures or self assayed compounds.
Maybe the underlying point is that 65% of Shorthorn breeders aren't breeding Shorthorns.
I'm pretty sure most of these show heifers we're ganging up on are Shorthorn Plus- which are just grade cattle.
Definition: (http://www.memidex.com/grade+cattle)
a variety of cattle produced by crossbreeding with a superior breed
So if we are talking about Shorthorns (the superior breed <beer>) then why not talk about Shorthorns instead of mixtures or self assayed compounds.
Maybe the underlying point is that 65% of Shorthorn breeders aren't breeding Shorthorns.
shortyjock89
Well-known member
Semantics.
So what is your definition of a real Shorthorn? Is anything with Irish or Scotch heritage out?
So what is your definition of a real Shorthorn? Is anything with Irish or Scotch heritage out?
aj
Well-known member
I'l bet that is what it is.....bahahahahahahahahahahah
aj
Well-known member
The Shorthorn is a composite breed. They were developed from the Mancell and Durham cattle. I agree with Olson.
knabe
Well-known member
The issue is that they are not shorthorn breeders at all.
The shorthorn association is lucky they have them to keep the association afloat as there are too many talking about what should be done instead of doing it.
There is an inverse relationship between those that complain about shorthorns and those doing something about it. It's not personal, it's just the truth.
For once, just once, I'd like tubsee a post from the king complainer about his animals and how they were making inroads in the commercial arena.
Instead it's the same post over and over.
Show ring bad, no one is doing what I think is right. Why can't I just tell everyone what to do.
The shorthorn association is lucky they have them to keep the association afloat as there are too many talking about what should be done instead of doing it.
There is an inverse relationship between those that complain about shorthorns and those doing something about it. It's not personal, it's just the truth.
For once, just once, I'd like tubsee a post from the king complainer about his animals and how they were making inroads in the commercial arena.
Instead it's the same post over and over.
Show ring bad, no one is doing what I think is right. Why can't I just tell everyone what to do.
aj
Well-known member
Knabe I have a website.
librarian
Well-known member
No, I'm taking about Simmental %, xyz%.Olson Family Shorthorns said:
But yes about the semantics. I wanted to use the term Shorthorn derivatives instead of mixtures, but I don't think Shorthorn Plus is derived from Shorthorn. The base is something else enhanced with Shorthorn.
Hey, it stopped raining!
What's the big deal about whether the cattle fit your "ideal" of what a Shorthorn should be, whatever that is? Find me a real purebred Simmental, Limousin, Maine Anjou, Gelbvieh, or Angus for that matter. The only ones would be the fullbloods and there aren't many of them. Name any breed that didn't evolve from the mixture of "neighborhood" cattle. What's the difference of promoting Shorthorn Plus as opposed to "Balancers" or any of the other X-bred cattle many breed associations are recognizing in their registry? It's simply a method to involve more people in the breed and create more revenue. Are Maine Anjou a real force in the commercial industry? The only place I see them is in the show ring and they don't have to be anywhere near 100% to show. How about the Chis? I think if you have a picture of a Chi in your den any cattle you raise can register as a Chi. If the show ring is so bad, why are there 500 Simmentals or more shown at the Iowa State Fair? How come the show lasts 14 hours and is so well attended if these cattle are so commercial oriented? Who's watching the show? Colorado ranchers? All the genetics that win the Simmental show in Des Moines end up in the commercial herds out west. My neighbor sells EVERY bull calf he raises from SHOW Simmental genetics to commercial producers at a sale in Nebraska. And for good money. His cattle are almost pets, are dry lotted year round, pushed as hard as they can be and evidently must be doing a reasonable job in commercial herds out west. Are the Simmental judges so much better at picking winners that work in the real world? I doubt it. Promotion and public perception are the driving forces in nearly every industry, beef cattle included. Certified Angus Beef anyone?
knabe
Well-known member
aj said:
AJ, you have a brain. use it.
knabe
Well-known member
aj said:
Maine's are a composite from an infusion of Durham's from england.
shorthorns, and all breeds in general, are merely selections and restricted breeding around those selections or phenotypes.
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