A&T CAPTAIN OBVIOUS calves

[rarebirdz]

I think u could answer ur own question by looking at the wakaru bulls patent sons were awesome. I wasn't a fan of co or jpj progeny but the one I'd pick if I had to is jpj I gave my reasons

 

[kfacres]

hey sue.. lets see some pictures of linebred CO offspring.. I know you have bred him back to some daughters- and done some half brother/ sister matings..

IMO the true breeding value of a bull is much better seen if he's 75% of the pedigree- or a double shot making up 50%.  That's when the equation is based and centered around the bull-- and his mother-- the o so controversial point in a bull's success or not..--- is thrown out of the equation.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Waukaru Patent is great-but not readily available-another example of the "incredible shrinking Shorthorn" a couple Shorthorn breeders use him-and he has no effect at all.upon a vast commercial market-puds that they (are) maybe-other than JSF Adiccted-at least some of the Jungels bulls are available. O0

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

do you often make a habit of picking small footed, hairy bulls for commercial use?

I did mention the only shorties I thought were practical were the wakarus

If I had to choose between the two bulls based on the offspring seen at Denver I'd go with the smaller footed beast as they were sound moving smooth shouldered. Big shoulders alarm me and the unsoundness in movement was the deal breaker my husband reminded me there was a red son in a pen of 3 also by co who looked good until you elevated his front at the show he was already showing stiffness in his movement

I know that this might sound like just a bull owner trying to promote his animal, but Doc at Denver wasn't walking very well yes.  He was I would bet he was one of the very few that was actually used on a larger harsh pasture all summer breeding cows for the last 2 years.  Also he had NO pain killers or joint supplementation giving to him at any point.  He was in a mud lot that had frozen before Denver.  He was not babied at all.  I truely wish that you could come out and see him work the pasture.  He is completely different in his movement.  As far as his shoulder goes we have not had one bit of calving problems with his shoulders.  Only 1 pull so far that I have had out of basically a heifer that stopped pushing.  If you think that the Wakaru cattle were the only "practical" cattle then that is your openion.  I personally believe that there were MANY different kinds of bulls at Denver that can be used in many different practical ways.  Like the heifer in MBar's pen that scanned over a 15in REA.  That might work in someones operation I think.  Wakaru's bull could work in many different areas as well.  Oh and did I mention that the judge even made a comment on how he was walking?  He said basically that he wasn't walking the best that day but WAS NOT a unsound bull.  Thanks again for even looking at the bull that is why I took him out there to begin with.   <beer>

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I think that is being as honest as one can be. I have yet to see a perfect animal.


Mark, you can always buy a son of Patent

 

[rarebirdz]

Davis would love to see a video of him next breeding season when he isn't on cement as I mentioned these were opinions from what I saw up until your bull walked I had been telling my hubby how impressed I was with him even with the shoulders and that I was gonna have to reevaluate co

 

[mark tenenbaum]

CO really needs to be bred to the larger high Bw show cattle-particularly Shorthorns-I really like him for the commercial end.-my cattle are just too moderate(10 years ago he would have been right on target) However-on larger breed (Simmis,Charolais,and PARTICULARLY FULLBLOOD maines) he would and has been proven to excell.I am surprised there isnt more Australian interest-sorry-the Marrellon sale deal on here showed alot of leggy-sorta dual looking cattle ,and they need a bull like that. Look at the Rolex(Mark1v) influenced cattle and the difference in depth of rib etc-best ones on there:25 year old genetics-along with the 20 plus year old Super Dazzler deals. JMO-

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

Davis would love to see a video of him next breeding season when he isn't on cement as I mentioned these were opinions from what I saw up until your bull walked I had been telling my hubby how impressed I was with him even with the shoulders and that I was gonna have to reevaluate co

I will defiantly try my best to get a video of him out on pasture this spring/ summer.  

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I think that is being as honest as one can be. I have yet to see a perfect animal.


Mark, you can always buy a son of Patent /// Doesnt work when you only want to use those genetics on one or two-which is the reality with most small herds-and I havent seen a son anywhere near as good as him-which would dillute what I was trying to accomplish in the first place. O0

 

[Mueller Show Cattle]

I like what I'm seeing out of CO and have several straws of him in the tank, have not used him yet. I like the thickness I'm seeing and was planning on using him on about a 95% all red registered shorthorn this coming spring. This cow is a little longer than I would like but does have good front shoulders and is semi deep in the rib. I would call her flaw besides being a little long in my liking is she could be thicker in the rear. She has good hair also. Sue does CO throw some decent hair? I would think that he would add the thickness to the rear and I don't know how long his calves have been, any answers on that Sue? My dad fell in love with CO and was the one that asked me to buy some of the CO semen and this red shorthorn cow of mine he actually bought, With her being 95% red and CO being red, I would think I got a good shot at a red calf. Thanks

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I like what I'm seeing out of CO and have several straws of him in the tank, have not used him yet. I like the thickness I'm seeing and was planning on using him on about a 95% all red registered shorthorn this coming spring. This cow is a little longer than I would like but does have good front shoulders and is semi deep in the rib. I would call her flaw besides being a little long in my liking is she could be thicker in the rear. She has good hair also. Sue does CO throw some decent hair? I would think that he would add the thickness to the rear and I don't know how long his calves have been, any answers on that Sue? My dad fell in love with CO and was the one that asked me to buy some of the CO semen and this red shorthorn cow of mine he actually bought, With her being 95% red and CO being red, I would think I got a good shot at a red calf. Thanks/// Well:i aint Sue-but it sounds like a big long Shorthorn cow-which is exactly what CO works on:as far as adding a butt-if you get ahiefer-and shes isnt quite there-you can breed her semi clubby-and it should be a complete cycle-calving ease intact. O0

 

[Mueller Show Cattle]

I like what I'm seeing out of CO and have several straws of him in the tank, have not used him yet. I like the thickness I'm seeing and was planning on using him on about a 95% all red registered shorthorn this coming spring. This cow is a little longer than I would like but does have good front shoulders and is semi deep in the rib. I would call her flaw besides being a little long in my liking is she could be thicker in the rear. She has good hair also. Sue does CO throw some decent hair? I would think that he would add the thickness to the rear and I don't know how long his calves have been, any answers on that Sue? My dad fell in love with CO and was the one that asked me to buy some of the CO semen and this red shorthorn cow of mine he actually bought, With her being 95% red and CO being red, I would think I got a good shot at a red calf. Thanks/// Well:i aint Sue-but it sounds like a big long Shorthorn cow-which is exactly what CO works on:as far as adding a butt-if you get ahiefer-and shes isnt quite there-you can breed her semi clubby-and it should be a complete cycle-calving ease intact. O0

Cool, Thanks, Mark. I like this cow besides them 2 flaws, excellent mother and has never had any problem calving, she is one of my cows that I breed and I don't have to worry about her at all. She keeps her weight on all winter and keeps it on pretty well while her calves are nursing. Good deal, if I get a heifer, I'll keep her for breeding stock for club calfs, if I get a bull, I'll steer it for the shorthorn show at state fair.

 

[sue]

I like what I'm seeing out of CO and have several straws of him in the tank, have not used him yet. I like the thickness I'm seeing and was planning on using him on about a 95% all red registered shorthorn this coming spring. This cow is a little longer than I would like but does have good front shoulders and is semi deep in the rib. I would call her flaw besides being a little long in my liking is she could be thicker in the rear. She has good hair also. Sue does CO throw some decent hair? I would think that he would add the thickness to the rear and I don't know how long his calves have been, any answers on that Sue? My dad fell in love with CO and was the one that asked me to buy some of the CO semen and this red shorthorn cow of mine he actually bought, With her being 95% red and CO being red, I would think I got a good shot at a red calf. Thanks

If you need hair then get em out of the sun and yep the gene for CO is there... fair to say linebred for red, longevity, ranch.practical bred in layers of generations .
I did use( brother x sister mating ) called Lo Rider this past summer... very excited about his offspring- he is in Alabama now our partner  Parnell Farms  has used him both fall and early winter breeding. ... sold a little semen and we will just see where this goes. Late Jan.  Tornado in Alabama put LoRider back to work so picture is postponed ... his bw to ww spread is there.
Big M ... if you dont get a red calf ... call me .

 

[kfacres]

I think u could answer ur own question by looking at the wakaru bulls patent sons were awesome. I wasn't a fan of co or jpj progeny but the one I'd pick if I had to is jpj I gave my reasons

Well since you asked:  Here is my take on the Wakauru cattle:

I see larger than average (well not for the shorthorn breed average-- but cattle industry average) birth weight- solid red- high yearling weight- carcass oriented cattle that are also high maintaining and high input.  Even if you counter with all they eat is grass-- I will say that Indiana has some of the most, and highest quality grass in the world.  Put them out eating twigs and match sticks in Kansas-- and lets see how they grade. 

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I think u could answer ur own question by looking at the wakaru bulls patent sons were awesome. I wasn't a fan of co or jpj progeny but the one I'd pick if I had to is jpj I gave my reasons

Well since you asked:  Here is my take on the Wakauru cattle:

I see larger than average (well not for the shorthorn breed average-- but cattle industry average) birth weight- solid red- high yearling weight- carcass oriented cattle that are also high maintaining and high input.  Even if you counter with all they eat is grass-- I will say that Indiana has some of the most, and highest quality grass in the world.  Put them out eating twigs and match sticks in Kansas-- and lets see how they grade. ///

WELL put-there are actually alot of dual cattle in the background-and a ton of enticer.I will say-that the Waukaru cattle cross with Maines and probably clubby like gangbusters-but they aint range cattle perse.The magic bull worked great on thier cattle-and I know,you know,and the shadow knows-he was part maine-cuz I knew the guy who raised Irisnh Sweepstakes etc.

 

[Okotoks]

In the last few years the majority of the bulls used in Australia from North America have been Waukaru and Eionmor. They are used in herds down there that have gone through droughts, graze most of the year and have to cover the acres! As well the Crooked Post herd is deep in Waukaru breeding and they do well in central Alberta.(actually a short drive from Eionmor)

 

[shortdawg]

Both bulls have their fit IMO - a lot of good things about each one said on here - just use the one that fits your program better and don't worry about what anybody else thinks - I've had a lot of experience with JPJ so I know more what he adds and don't add - no experience with CO but I do think he has his fit and is a nice bull as well - I'm attaching a few pics of some progeny we've had out of JPJ

 

[shortdawg]

Classic JPJ female - moderate and stout - this one is a JPJxYahtzee/MA - I have many more if anyone is interested just PM me and I'd be glad to send pics

 

[thunderdownunder]

In the last few years the majority of the bulls used in Australia from North America have been Waukaru and Eionmor. They are used in herds down there that have gone through droughts, graze most of the year and have to cover the acres! As well the Crooked Post herd is deep in Waukaru breeding and they do well in central Alberta.(actually a short drive from Eionmor)

Well Okotoks, as usual you got in before me! I was going to say just the same.

There is a reason that the majority of US genetics used in Australia over the past decade or more have been Waukaru. These cattle have consistently worked over a large range of herds here. We don't suffer under performing, high input cattle. In fact, in many places here up until the last couple of years, all any of our cattle have had to eat is dirt and the odd leaf! Now some areas are experiencing the polar opposite with terrible floods.

There are other US bulls which have worked, but I'm yet to see another herd turn out the volume of sires suitable to our climate as Waukaru have done.

As for JPJ and CO, from what I have seen of the two bulls' production abilities, my choice would certainly be JPJ purely for his cleaner front, structure, natural thickness and movement. Personally, I'm looking forward to the calves of one of those Patent sons at Denver, which was the cleanest fronted, structurally sound and best moving bull there IMO. If they can't walk, then the rest doesn't matter.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

IMO, this just goes to show how far off Australia and Canada are from the united States still. Wakaru and no offense, but they have already had there peak here. Lots of folks used them ALOT. They are sure making a effort to get their cattle up to snuff. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion but after reading your thoughts TDU, I am going to guess you have never been around CO and have seen very few offspring. Its interesting to me you would pick JPJ when he doesnt bring to the table what aussies think is important, ie growth and bigger framed animals that pack the pounds. Seems weird to me. I can apprecitae your opinion and I will respectfully disagree. I also dont understand why Patent wouldnt be on the open market? Whats the point? seems to be backwards thinking to me. Again, just my opinion. I dont need to be scolded.  I have enjoyed reading this thread and I dont want it to turn into a pissing match.