A&T Renegade 124 calves and video

[aandtcattle]

Those calves look really nice, JTM!  I got my first Renegade yesterday, born unassisted, 72 pound bull calf, unfortunately when I found the calf it was still warm, but had its head folded underneath itself and was dead.  It really made me upset as this was one of my more exciting matings with the heifer being an RS 832 (ROB) out of a Captain Obvious daughter!  I have many more Renegades to come yet, both purebreds and out of angus cows, and can't wait to get a live one!

 

[RyanChandler]

I hope the calves are built better then the Piper bull himself. Those pics don't do a thing for me. No guts. Long legged. He just doesn't looked balanced to me.

What have you raised??

TGCC produced

86G is considerably better than either 80C or this Piper bull.   Anytime I see a bull described as long hipped and deep flanked, I immediately translate that to flat sided and narrow based- cattle that look good from the profile (only).  If all three of them were competing in a class at Ft Worth yesterday, the judge would have said "Neither 80c or Piper have the volume, capacity, or overall mass to compete with 86G.  There's just not enough of of either one of them to place any higher."   86G looks like a beef bull.  W/o question JTMs bull has the better MGS.

I can assure that the Piper bull was not flat sided.  I am heading to check out the Eionmor bulls in the next week and I will post some pictures of Piper sons.  Piper was never photographed as a mature bull so to compare a 16 month old in July after breeding season to 86G as a mature bull is difficult at best.    As for 80C he also was not flat sided.   Eionmor have an excellent program, their cattle have tons of volume and depth.

I'm cocksure enough in my ability to evaluate cattle that I can see them at 1 month old, 1 year old, or 10 years old I can confidently assert whether or not one has adequate rib and base width.  That Piper bull has neither.  He does have length of spine and as you stated, he is pretty long from hook to pin- For his frame, he should weight at least a couple hundred more lbs at 16mnths old, but with his proportion of body to leg, thats impossible.  I don't have a dog in the fight, I just think its pretty brazen to try and compare either one to 86G.

 

[thunderdownunder]

I hope the calves are built better then the Piper bull himself. Those pics don't do a thing for me. No guts. Long legged. He just doesn't looked balanced to me.

What have you raised??

TGCC produced

86G is considerably better than either 80C or this Piper bull.   Anytime I see a bull described as long hipped and deep flanked, I immediately translate that to flat sided and narrow based- cattle that look good from the profile (only).  If all three of them were competing in a class at Ft Worth yesterday, the judge would have said "Neither 80c or Piper have the volume, capacity, or overall mass to compete with 86G.  There's just not enough of of either one of them to place any higher."   86G looks like a beef bull.  W/o question JTMs bull has the better MGS.

I can assure that the Piper bull was not flat sided.  I am heading to check out the Eionmor bulls in the next week and I will post some pictures of Piper sons.  Piper was never photographed as a mature bull so to compare a 16 month old in July after breeding season to 86G as a mature bull is difficult at best.    As for 80C he also was not flat sided.   Eionmor have an excellent program, their cattle have tons of volume and depth.

I'm cocksure enough in my ability to evaluate cattle that I can see them at 1 month old, 1 year old, or 10 years old I can confidently assert whether or not one has adequate rib and base width.  That Piper bull has neither.  He does have length of spine and as you stated, he is pretty long from hook to pin- For his frame, he should weight at least a couple hundred more lbs at 16mnths old, but with his proportion of body to leg, thats impossible.   I don't have a dog in the fight, I just think its pretty brazen to try and compare either one to 86G.

How much have you had to do with the Eionmor genetics XBAR? Have you seen these in person? I am not comparing any of these sires to each other, but I've seen the Piper calves and they were stand outs (along with the Ultra line of calves, particularly 8C). I think the way a bull performs in terms of progeny is a far more comprehensive test than what you think of a photo of said bull, at a young age, and clearly still in the midst of growing.
As has been pointed out, you can hardly compare photos of a young bull of that age with a mature aged bull's photo. But then, I guess it's also advantageous to actually see the cattle you're talking about in person, before making sweeping statements (which I'd call pretty darn brazen).

 

[Okotoks]

Here are some pics of heifer calves by Royal Piper 22T taken on Oct 13 during a nice little snow. They were born in March.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I assumed the calves out of the piper bull were good. Okotoks would not have said anything if they were not. I haven't produced much really. Got lucky on one bull. The rest has not gone as I hoped. I'm just stating the picture didn't do much for me. And like many have said a single picture doesn't tell the whole story. I have tons of respect for RN Reeds cattle on here. Eionmor has played a big role there. I'm not attacking anyone.

I tend to agree with xbar. I can tell if a calf is my kind from birth. I know what I like when I see it. It's immediate and my gut screams oh yeah. It happens rarely but it's pretty cool when it does.


Always have to start bitching at each other. I thought I stated that comment above as politely as needed. But once again folks forgot to put their big boy pants on today.

 

[JTM]

I hope the calves are built better then the Piper bull himself. Those pics don't do a thing for me. No guts. Long legged. He just doesn't looked balanced to me.

I have to agree on the pictures of Piper but he is long hipped and deep flanked and they are July photos with no extra hair. Piper produced some pretty impressive calves. His heifers which are deep, thick, with beautiful heads.  The bulls last year stood out by a lot, with style, thickness, as well as performance. This is something I noticed again this year with the Eionmor bulls on test, a lot of which pattern similarly to Marquis. 

Renegade I think is going to add a lot of fabulous characteristics to many herds in the future congratulations to JTM

Thanks a lot Jaime, I agree!

Those calves look really nice, JTM!  I got my first Renegade yesterday, born unassisted, 72 pound bull calf, unfortunately when I found the calf it was still warm, but had its head folded underneath itself and was dead.  It really made me upset as this was one of my more exciting matings with the heifer being an RS 832 (ROB) out of a Captain Obvious daughter!  I have many more Renegades to come yet, both purebreds and out of angus cows, and can't wait to get a live one!

That really sucks! I know you were very upset finding that. I've got about 15 more Renegades coming out of heifers left to go. About a dozen of them are bred for April out of black angus crossbred and purebreds. It's going to be very exciting!!

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I for one-would like to follow the progress of the Renegade out of the female that goes back to maine-yet very reasonable BW-looked pretty stout for a low BW newborn-thats one you might sell some semen on if he turns out O0

 

[aj]

I'm with trevor.....the one picture needs to be destroyed......terrible picture if nothing else.....jmo.

 

[garybob]

back to the original topic, Folks!.....ah-HEM!

I really like the first calf.

GB

 

[JPS]

I actually saw Mr Gus  80c as a mature bull in 1996 and 1997 and probably 100 calves and 50 bred heifers and at least a few 3 year olds.  I will tell you that he looked a lot like Marquis 86G, but he should they have the same mother.  I have video of him, but I don't think I have a picture.  I hated his picture in the Alta Sire directory, but his calves were awfully impressive and so uniform that you could pick them out after a short while. Troy based on what I saw in your herd, you would have liked 80c.

I believe the mother of the bulls was 14 or 15 years old when they culled her.  Awesome cow, very deep and lots of spring of rib (have her on video too).  To me she was the reason that both bulls breed well.  All of my experience with 80C and a son of him that I bought was easy calving and easy fleshing.  Daughters and grand daughters were real nice and had some longevity.  I have been using Studers Trendsetter (Marquis son) on some 80c grand daughters.  Results look quite good thus far.

I don't like the picture of Piper either, but it looks similar to 80c's picture when he was young.  Not saying I will use him, I would have to see some progeny first. I am not as good as some of you are at picking the best calf at birth.  Some bulls' calves look the best they ever will, the day they are born and go down hill from there.  Others I have seen look better everyday of their life.  Maybe I just don't have as good of an eye as others.  But I know what has worked for me.  If any of you have any of that old 80c semen that you want to throw away, I would be glad to take it off your hands!

Good luck with the A&T Renegade calves, I saw him as a calf and liked him.  I like A&T's program, you should all get there sometime, tough environment, and good cattle rise to the top in that system.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

JPS makes a excellent point. I know a good animal when I see it but that doesn't mean the animal will always be the type I prefer. There in lies the trick IMO. I enjoyed your comments JPS. Keep them coming.

 

[rarebirdz]

Calfs look good the angus cross ones shuld be exciting

 

[Duncraggan]

A&T Renegades first calf hit the ground today! It's very exciting because of the performance of the first calf sired by him. The calf was a bull calf out of a DF Waco x MWF Ruth's Joy (PB maine). He was born unassisted and got up and nursed unassisted too. Don't know his birthweight yet. A very exciting fact about this birth is the fact that it was 8 days early and on a bull calf. It's a good start for Renegade...

Spry's All Gold D052's first Autumn 2013 calf (heifer) hit the ground on Tuesday 05 February 2013.  Born before sunrise, I can only assume it nursed unassisted as nobody has helped it!  Birthweight 31kg (about 68lbs).

It's udder is as it looks, I only milk out cows front quarters if the calf can't suckle on it's own.  An old-timer told me that it only makes the cow produce more milk as the demand is there!

That's what I expect from my Shorthorns!

 

[JTM]

I for one-would like to follow the progress of the Renegade out of the female that goes back to maine-yet very reasonable BW-looked pretty stout for a low BW newborn-thats one you might sell some semen on if he turns out O0

Mark, actually both of those bull calves go back to purebred Maines that are paternal sisters to the same Fullblood bull we got from Bentwood Maines (Bentley's) in Kentucky. Pictured below. So one of the dams is a Waco out of a purebred Maine and one is a Star Bucks out of a purebred Maine. So both bulls calves sired by Renegade are eligible for purebred status... It is going to be very interesting. Both have herd sire written all over them.

Another update, one of our bred heifer customers who bought an Eldorado x Salute DZ Fool heifer bred to Renegade let us know that they have a very nice 80 lb. bull calf on the ground! Very good consistency so far on the high bw genetics...

 

[JTM]

I for one-would like to follow the progress of the Renegade out of the female that goes back to maine-yet very reasonable BW-looked pretty stout for a low BW newborn-thats one you might sell some semen on if he turns out O0

Mark, you wanted to follow the progress and her it is! Tag 107 is out of a 7/8's DF Waco x PB Maine Anjou(3/4) but was only 80 lbs. at birth. He is showing his potential for the unlimited potential sale. 

 

[RyanChandler]

Nice calf Josh!

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

Looking Dang good!!!

 

[JTM]

Thanks Ryan and Matt! Renegade is for real so far. Exceeding all expectations or should I say matching my every hope so far. Haha. Well, to say I'm a little excited would be an understatement. One more to go here in the next couple of weeks and then I've got about a dozen crossbred and purebred angus heifers bred to him. They will calve on their own in the field with the cows starting in April. Ryan, we make our commercial bred heifers perform just like our cows. 

 

[RyanChandler]

Ryan, we make our commercial bred heifers perform just like our cows. 

I do too but not checking on them, or better yet encouraging others to follow this practice, is not only foolish but highly arrogant as well. 

 

[JTM]

Got some photos and videos of Renegade done today. There are 5 videos in all.

http://youtu.be/H5Py7qB2RpI