Acepromazine

[deweyone]

How much Ace do you use to calm show cattle, squirted on the tongue?

 

[LLBUX]

Is it labeled for use in cattle?

 

[CAB]

How much Ace do you use to calm show cattle, squirted on the tongue?

UT-OH, here we go again!! ;D

 

[OLD WORLD SHORTIE]

 

[GoWyo]

The correct answer is NONE.  DL has a pretty well-rehearsed answer of why.  Maybe she can post it again and it can go into the Hall of Fame.  <rock>

 

[obie105]

Hes only been a member for a month so he probably hasn't seen all the posts on it.

 

[DL]

How much Ace do you use to calm show cattle, squirted on the tongue?

Acepromazine is NOT approved for use in cattle. As such you must meet both the extra label drug use requirements (ELDU) and AMDUCA (Animal Medicinal Drug Use Clarification Act) ...IMHO using tranquilizers in show cattle is cheating (as well as technically illegal) - yes I know it happens
see below from Jan 2008

January 07, 2008, 05:33:30 PM
http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index.php?topic=2750.10;wap2

When you look at a bottle of medicine it will state what the drug is to be used for and what the dose is and how the drug is to be administered. The listed use on the bottle is considered the “label use”. It will also state the species that the drug is approved for. Human and animal drugs are labeled in such a fashion. As an aside - In human medicine, unless the patient given informed consent, using a drug outside of the labeled use can result in a lawsuits.

For example Banamine is labeled for use in cattle to control fever associated with respiratory disease at a dose of 0.5 to 1 mg/kg to be given IV (intravenously)– if you give more of the drug or use it for an acute injury or give it in the muscle it is extra label drug use (ELDU) and subject to the rules and regulations set up by AMDUCA (Animal Medicinal Drug Use Clarification Act of 1994). Acepromazine is approved (labeled) for use in horses and dogs, thorazine is a human antipsychotic.

Prior to AMDUCA, veterinarians were not legally permitted to use an animal drug in any way except as indicated on the label. Following the passage of AMDUCA, veterinarians gained the right to prescribe/dispense the “extralabel” use of drugs but the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) places limits the extralabel use of drugs to protect public health.

ELDU occurs when the drug’s actual or intended use in a manner no in accordance with the approved label, for example using a drug in a species which is not listed on the label, for a use not on the label, at a dose not on the label or by a route not on the label. Although the ELDU rule allows veterinarians to legally use drugs beyond what the label says this must be done within the confines of the law.

It is actually a luxury to be able to prescribe drugs extra label – and I and most of my colleagues take this responsibility very seriously. ELDU in food animals is not only a matter of food safety and purity, but consumer confidence and integrity of product – whether that product is being sold as a breeding animal, shown, or in the meat case.

ELDU is limited to cases in which the health of the animal is threatened, or suffering or death may result from a lack of treatment. ELDU is not an option where the drug use is to enhance production. Veterinarians can consider ELDU in food-producing animals only when no approved drug is available for use that contains the same active ingredient in the required dosage form and concentration, or that the veterinarian finds that there is no approved drug that is clinically effective for the intended use.

There are a variety of criteria that must be met and rules that must be followed for the legal use of drugs extra label. Many large dairies and other operation have “SOPS” given to them by their veterinarian that describes the use of various drugs – dose, route, use, and WITHDRAWAL TIME. When you use a drug off label the withdrawal time changes and can result in a residue in meat or milk. Dairy producers who depend on clean milk for their paycheck are acutely aware of ELDU and milk withdrawal and slaughter withhold. Many of the noncommercial show oriented beef producers are less aware.  There can be significant consequences.

The key is ELDU is limited to cases in which the health of the animal is threatened, or suffering or death may result from a lack of treatment. There is absolutely no way you can follow the law and give your show animals ace, no matter what the rational, excuse, reason, etc


There are also drugs that can absolutely positively NOT be used in an extra label manner – these include
•  Chloramphenicol
•  Clenbuterol
•  Diethylstilbestrol (DES)
•  Dimetridazole
•  Ipronidazole
•  Other Nitroimidazoles
•  Furazolidone, Nitrofurazone, Other Nitrofurans
•  Sulfonamide drugs in lactating dairy cows (except approved use of sulfadimethoxine, sulfa bromomethazine, and sulfaethoxypyridazine)
•  Fluoroquinolones
•  Glycopeptides (example: vancomycin)
•  Phenybutazone in female dairy cattle 20 months of age or older
•  Adamantane and neuraminidase inhibitor classes of drugs that are approved for treating or preventing influenza A are prohibited therapy in chickens, turkeys, and ducks (Effective: June 20, 2006)

In summary, the veterinarian must:
-Make a careful diagnosis or evaluation of the conditions to be treated;
-Establish a substantially extended drug withdrawal period that is supported by scientific evidence;
-Take the steps necessary to be sure the withdrawal period is met and no illegal drug residues occur in food from the treated animals; and
- Institute procedures to make sure the treated animal’s identity is known. And that records relating to details of the ELDU are retained for the required two years.

The AMDUCA regulation places requirements on the veterinarian to properly label the drugs used extralabel and to give the livestock owner complete instructions about proper use of the drug and withdrawal times. Veterinarians remain responsible for any volative drug tissue residues that occur because of ELDU under their supervision.

Under no circumstances can a non-veterinarian order the extralabel use of a drug in animals.

The AVMA has a good brochure explaining ELDU (web site below) but I have also attached it.

http://www.fda.gov/cvm/amducatoc.htm


gowyo - had to find it - who would have thought it was 4 years old

 

[WhoaFlicka]

2-3 cc on 1400 lbs steer

 

[hamburgman]

Besides the reasons given by DL, ACE makes cattle walk rubbery.  There should be other sedatives that are approved for cattle that one can use, though they pry cost a little more.

 

[Bradenh]

I would try melatonin? Or at least a Google search on something before you post a question about an illegal drug on a form and make yourself look ignorant? If the label doesn't have the directions you need, good idea to probably not use it

Melatonin works better anyway I've heard

 

[knabe]

ace freely?'

 

[mick rems]

2-3 cc on 1400 lbs steer

are u nuts. that will have a steer knocked out cold for beyond several hours if not dead. unless u meant to have it as .2-.3. we have only used it a couple of times ace or rompin. the actual ace we used was from a vet and it was being used on a cow that was a bit of a psycho path. she still is. she's the kind u gotta sedate to give a shot to. rompin, liquid ace, we have never used on a steer at a show, except maybe one and i dont think we even did on him. on heifers we squirt about a quarter cc on our finger and just rub it on their gums. again this came from a vet actually. the only time we gave it to a steer ourselves was my back up steer my 3rd yr showing, to work with him the first time. as he was kinda crazy. then he calmed down. vets will give cattle rompin obviously to sedate for whatever reason.

that being said i dont reccomend using it. like dl said there legal conflictions. and theres products that work. cattle calm paste, melatonin, 100mg per day or more depending on the crazyness started a couple of days in advance and then upped at least 50 percent on show day or when at a show. there's also a product called relax fit i've posted this once before and it works wonders. i dont remember the company again. u can prolly find it on the first post i mentioned it in. at the last couple shows psycho cow wasnt getting any melatonin, ace, or anything, she just got double dose of relax fit that morning and she was the best she's ever been in the ring. it is a feed additive. u used to have to start feeding it 3 days before the show, but the products been tweeked and only needs to be fed on the days of the show. u can get it at a feed mill.

 

[Tallcool1]

How much Ace do you use to calm show cattle, squirted on the tongue?

Well, you have gone and done it.  You have awakened the BEAST that is the Labeling Police. 

You are new on here, and so consider this your orientation.

1.  There are things that are done in the show CATTLE (not just show steers) industry that you know are done.  You have seen it, and you have been told about it.  Some of these things, even though they are everyday practices, are not to be spoken of. 

2.  There are about 7 million posts on this site, and you are expected to read through all of them before you shall be permitted to ask a question.  Not 6 million of them.  ALL of them.  There will be a short 500 question test.

3.  There are certain producers of certain breeds of cattle that are pretty sure that their breed is superior to all others.  You are not permitted to challenge their beliefs without consequence.  Be prepared to be blown away by numbers and supporting data to back their arguments.  Oh, and you are not permitted to ask what any of the data means.  (Refer to rule number 2).

4.  I know the name of the site is "STEER PLANET", but there are a pretty healthy percentage of readers on here that literally loathe the club calf industry.  You are not permitted to look them in the eye.

5.  But seriously, this site is full of some of the most experienced and intelligent people in this industry.  I have found that nobody has to be a beginner in the cattle showing business if they choose to utilize this site.  Use the search tab.  Just type in your question and you will get lots of material.

Now, back to your question....If I were you, I would (not) make a solution of 8cc water and 2cc of Rompen and start that calf on 1cc of the new solution on his tongue, AT HOME, and just see what it does to him.  If you don't try this out, you may not just find out that your calf maybe just needed the smallest little bit of help to see things your way.  If this calf is going to a terminal show, do NOT mess around with anything.  Go with the Malotonin or something NATURAL ONLY!  You will have bigger problems than the keyboard whippin you are already taking!

And whatever you do, after you don't try this, review Rule number 1.

And BEFORE anybody goes off on me......this is intended to be humor.  I understand the seriousness of off label usage, and the reason it exists.  I also understand the importance of Rule number 1!!  I also understand the importance of having a calf that is controllable.

 

[gary89]

How much Ace do you use to calm show cattle, squirted on the tongue?

Well, you have gone and done it.  You have awakened the BEAST that is the Labeling Police. 

You are new on here, and so consider this your orientation.

1.  There are things that are done in the show CATTLE (not just show steers) industry that you know are done.  You have seen it, and you have been told about it.  Some of these things, even though they are everyday practices, are not to be spoken of. 

2.  There are about 7 million posts on this site, and you are expected to read through all of them before you shall be permitted to ask a question.  Not 6 million of them.  ALL of them.  There will be a short 500 question test.

3.  There are certain producers of certain breeds of cattle that are pretty sure that their breed is superior to all others.  You are not permitted to challenge their beliefs without consequence.  Be prepared to be blown away by numbers and supporting data to back their arguments.  Oh, and you are not permitted to ask what any of the data means.  (Refer to rule number 2).

4.  I know the name of the site is "STEER PLANET", but there are a pretty healthy percentage of readers on here that literally loathe the club calf industry.  You are not permitted to look them in the eye.

5.  But seriously, this site is full of some of the most experienced and intelligent people in this industry.  I have found that nobody has to be a beginner in the cattle showing business if they choose to utilize this site.  Use the search tab.  Just type in your question and you will get lots of material.

Now, back to your question....If I were you, I would (not) make a solution of 8cc water and 2cc of Rompen and start that calf on 1cc of the new solution on his tongue, AT HOME, and just see what it does to him.  If you don't try this out, you may not just find out that your calf maybe just needed the smallest little bit of help to see things your way.  If this calf is going to a terminal show, do NOT mess around with anything.  Go with the Malotonin or something NATURAL ONLY!  You will have bigger problems than the keyboard whippin you are already taking!

And whatever you do, after you don't try this, review Rule number 1.

And BEFORE anybody goes off on me......this is intended to be humor.  I understand the seriousness of off label usage, and the reason it exists.  I also understand the importance of Rule number 1!!  I also understand the importance of having a calf that is controllable.

This post has hall of fame credentials! Love it!

 

[DL]

How much Ace do you use to calm show cattle, squirted on the tongue?

Now, back to your question....If I were you, I would (not) make a solution of 8cc water and 2cc of Rompen and start that calf on 1cc of the new solution on his tongue, AT HOME, and just see what it does to him.  If you don't try this out, you may not just find out that your calf maybe just needed the smallest little bit of help to see things your way.  If this calf is going to a terminal show, do NOT mess around with anything.  Go with the Malotonin or something NATURAL ONLY!  You will have bigger problems than the keyboard whippin you are already taking!

HA - very funny - perhaps we should follow rule number 43 - if you can't spell it you can't use it (joke HA)

Apparently you are unaware that xylazine (aka Rompun NOT Rompen) has the ability to kill a human (in the blink of an eye) and yet you would suggest that a youth mix it up in water and give it to his calf - priceless - I'll bet you have no idea the mechanism of action or the potential side effects. If you really understood the seriousness of off label use you would really know that use of Rompun orally to sedate a show calf is not legal under ELDU and AMDUCA,
fondly THE BEAST

ps Melatonin, not Malotonin - rule #43

 

[DLD]

Many people will tell you that calf calm doesn't work - in my experience, it can, but you need to start 12 hours before you show, and put a tube in them every 3 - 4 hours.  It may be a pain, and it's not cheap, but if you need it, you need it to work right, so go the extra mile to do it right.

Liquor can work, too. About half of a pint bottle of Everclear can do wonders, but try it at home first, 'cause cattle are like people - most are mellow drunks but a few are mean drunks - you don't want to try it the first time at a show and find out you've got a mean drunk...

 

[Tallcool1]

How much Ace do you use to calm show cattle, squirted on the tongue?

Now, back to your question....If I were you, I would (not) make a solution of 8cc water and 2cc of Rompen and start that calf on 1cc of the new solution on his tongue, AT HOME, and just see what it does to him.  If you don't try this out, you may not just find out that your calf maybe just needed the smallest little bit of help to see things your way.  If this calf is going to a terminal show, do NOT mess around with anything.  Go with the Melatonin or something NATURAL ONLY!  You will have bigger problems than the keyboard whippin you are already taking!

HA - very funny - perhaps we should follow rule number 43 - if you can't spell it you can't use it (joke HA)

Apparently you are unaware that xylazine (aka Rompun NOT Rompen) has the ability to kill a human (in the blink of an eye) and yet you would suggest that a youth mix it up in water and give it to his calf - priceless - I'll bet you have no idea the mechanism of action or the potential side effects. If you really understood the seriousness of off label use you would really know that use of Rompun orally to sedate a show calf is not legal under ELDU and AMDUCA,
fondly THE BEAST

ps Melatonin, not Melatonin - rule #43

I almost forgot!!!

6.  Spelling, punctuation, and typographiclalalalalalal errors are grounds for a lifetime ban from this site.  Besides, these types of errors make you look like an idiot...like me!!

BUT seriously, this is an OPEN forum.  It is a wonderful place to reference when it is time to make a real world decision.  There is a wealth of experience on this OPEN forum.  That is the beauty of an OPEN forum.  You can get the real world solution to real world challenge, and not get judged for it.  Well, only in theory I guess. 

Reality is that sometimes all of the alternatives to a sedative/muscle relaxer/tranquilizer just don't work.  My kids have one right now.  This steer has been messed with every single day for 6 months.  He gets rinsed 3 times a day, and spends 12+ hours a day in the cooler.  I know, I know, I know......then don't take him to the show.  Well you know what, that is not acceptable to me.  The kids picked him out, they work their tails off on him, and they take great pride in what they are doing.  If giving the calf a little dose of something to protect the safety of all of the spectators and little children being pushed around in strollers and wagons makes me a cheater or a criminal, then lock me up.  Plain and simple.......I DON'T CARE.  I will however be seeking immunity with the use of Rule number 1.   

Now I will step back from my previous post to say that I was not aware that I was responding to a question posted by a child.  I am fairly new on here, so I don't know how to tell how old someone is.  I would have never suggested that this child handle any type of medication without strict adult supervision.  I don't let my kids handle medication, except for the occasional trip to the refrigerator to get me a beer......for medicinal purposes of course.  I would like to point out however that DLD has given this same "child" the advice of Everclear!  Now, here is the story.  I am going to turn one of my kids loose at the State Fair carrying a bottle of Rompun/Ace/Insert Illegal Drug Here, and the other one with a bottle of Everclear.  They have to carry them in CLEAR SIGHT.  How are you betting?  Which one is gonna get in trouble first?  My money is on the Everclear smuggler!

I know that you are very intelligent, and I know that you are well versed and understand the rules for proper administration of animal drugs.  (I darn sure know that you spell better than I do!)  I would never question any of that.  I just don't agree with you.  And the truth is, there are plenty of other people on this site that are intelligent enough to make their own decisions regarding how they choose to sedate their cattle before they go to a show.  The member just asked a simple question.  Why not give that member the information in the form of a simple answer, and let them make their own decision?  I really don't understand why there needs to be any kind of "bullying" because of it.  Unless the site starts a new Bullying Section in which case I could see the need for that type of behavior.  That is probably not a good idea, although it may have some merit?  That is another post. 

 

[DL]

I know that you are very intelligent, and I know that you are well versed and understand the rules for proper administration of animal drugs.  (I darn sure know that you spell better than I do!)  I would never question any of that.  I just don't agree with you.  And the truth is, there are plenty of other people on this site that are intelligent enough to make their own decisions regarding how they choose to sedate their cattle before they go to a show.  The member just asked a simple question.  Why not give that member the information in the form of a simple answer, and let them make their own decision?  I really don't understand why there needs to be any kind of "bullying" because of it.  Unless the site starts a new Bullying Section in which case I could see the need for that type of behavior.  That is probably not a good idea, although it may have some merit?  That is another post. 

TC1 - I am well aware that there are many people who disagree with me and that certainly is their right - I am also well aware that people drug their calves and use the excuse that they are protecting their children and the public from a potentially crazy animal, these same people have no understanding of how the drug works or the potential side effects - people need to be aware of the laws and rules - which many are not - to make informed decisions. In addition to the legalities I think drugging show cattle is cheating - I know many do not

However - to specifically answer your question Why not give that member the information in the form of a simple answer, and let them make their own decision? I am not willing to lose my license to practice by either giving someone tranquilizers for show calves or recommending a dose of a drug that is not legal to use according to the ELDU and AMDUCA on a public forum. You can call it bullying I call it rule #53 "just the facts ma'm" (Sergent Friday, Dragnet

 

[knabe]

maybe we should have a liability section in parallel with the bullying section.

 

[obie105]

Just a thought .... ace is not labeled for cattle use and never has been.  so how does everyone get it?  I know a few years ago when I needed it I walked into the vet and got it. Why do people give it out? Just thinking