Belt Buckle Cattle

[librarian]

This is the ridiculous extreme, and a dwarf carrier, it seems.
I think the frame sizes were around 2. The sire of the angus bull I pictured was a 3, to small I think, and I sold him.

Her is something interesting about Native Aberdeen Angus cattle from Scotland and the traditional type. Easy fleshing and carcass quality seem to be the hallmarks.
http://www.sinclaircattle.com/scotland_all.php?list=archive

At that time Geordie had two native Aberdeen Angus cows, and there were only 16 of these native animals left in existence. Immediately I knew the native Scottish cattle were exactly what I was looking for: Very deep-bodied, early-maturing, medium- to moderate-framed, extremely easy-fleshing, with tremendous vital organ capacity, and superior eating quality. They were the same maternal breed that, at the turn of the 20th Century, also had the ability to come to the carcass contest in Chicago and win year after year.

Keep in mind that the cattle that started the breed in Scotland were very different from the belt buckle cattle that most Americans think of as the foundation of the Angus breed. Geordie's cattle actually possessed the same characteristics that made the Angus breed Scotland's greatest export.

 

[LLBUX]

Using the tape shown on the image, the bull would stand about 42" and would be in the range 00-0-1 depending on the bull's age.  They call them miniatures today. 

A frame 3 bull would be about 50" at two years.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

I think that actual Native Aberdeen Angus from UK as well as Scotch Aberdeen Angus found in Argentina are small due the unique genetic sources available are from 60's cattle. As new type was "created" on early 70's and frozen semen for AI purposes become popular on mid 60's....the unique way to restart with this free new type genetics is with a small amount froze semen from middle 60's. On that time cattle was small as well. If AI facilities could to preserve us semen from 20's or 30's, I think that Aberdeen Angus would to show a very different size, being bigger than actual Native/Scotch cattle found today.

 

[aj]

A mature frame 3 cow isn't as small as one would think.

 

[RyanChandler]

Depends. Some are 800lbs, some 1200lbs. That's the problem w: only talking frame scores, there's a lot of variation w/in each.

 

[r.n.reed]

I have always felt that pounds per frame score was a more valuable measurement than the actual weight of an animal.

 

[aj]

I was trying to figure out how do do a side by side.....small cow vs big cow......and then compare pounds weaned. Alot of variables in cow conditions. Maybe set a allowable limit of total cow pounds. Then in two different years.....run the small cows.....calculate pounds weaned......then run less number of big cows....calculate pounds weaned. Dang hard to do. steerplanet grin

 

[librarian]

How big was Kelburn Great Event?

 

[beebe]

How big was Kelburn Great Event?

This sounds like a JIT question.  I never saw him but I was around in that era,  my guess would be that he would be in the upper 4 to five frame score.

I wish I had some semen from him.

 

[knabe]

The thing I like most about these older cattle is the way their limbs come out of their frame and their spines in general, all the way from their tail to their neck.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Once again a remarkable series of resarched subjects. I really like yje story about the original Aberdeen Angus-it reminds me of the stories I heard from Cagwin and Johnny Hook about the Irish Shorthorns when they first saw them all the non-authentic arguments not withstandingO0

 

[cowpoke]

To me the best size is a cow that will raise a heavy quality calf on the feed available and be bred everyyear.I cant believe by the pictures how far from frame score 3 to frame score 8+ we have thought were ideal at the time.I do know that every time I see a top 10 rate of gain parade cattle are long bodied have some depth and are not small framed.You have to realize the club calf world is different from the feedlot and packer envioronment and some of the people that tell as what is ideal have knowledge gained from classroom only.

 

[librarian]

I agree.
Harlan Richies beef review really covers this well
https://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical/cattletype.html
This version is slicker and more specifically relates show types to the beef industry. Conoco is my favorite.
http://ranchhousedesigns.com/harlan-ritchies-brief-history-of-cattle-type/

And his paper, Connecting the Cow Herd to the Carcass: Balancing the Production Environment and the Marketplace, is pretty interesting
https://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/papers/connectcowherd.html
And, THE OPTIMUM COW -WHAT CRITERIA MUST SHE MEET?
https://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/papers/optimumcow.html

At the end of the day, he seems to say the most important factor in profit is a live calf, and heterosis is the producers best friend.
But, he does make some less obvious points as well....

 

[RyanChandler]

This cow is ideal. Game over  (lol)

 

[librarian]

Well maybe somewhere.... What is that book?
But it does remind me of the dark side of that Native Angus story. Sinclair dispersed their entire Dunlousie herd a couple years ago. This is the catalog. I really do not like this type of fatso cow. Those who went to the sale said the dispositions were terrible and when they went to load them it was chaos.
http://www.sinclaircattle.com/2012Dunlouise-SinclairDispersal.pdf

They do have a Native Red. Maybe Sinclair obesified them. I have to admit this black one looks exactly like an 18th century lithograph. The red one has that lumpy fat....
http://www.dunlouiseangus.com/dunlouise-cow-herd.html

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Frame 4
950 kg weight

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

8)

 

[beebe]

That is a good looking bull,  what has he been eating lately?

 

[librarian]

What I am starting to believe about getting out of the gene's way:
The cow has a lot of information stored in its long term genetic memory.
The immediate environment organizes which genes will be turned on or off. The genome can bend itself to accommodate a limited amount of novel information. Environment is everything outside the genes. We are the major environmental factor a cow must contend with. We unpredictably introduce DNA to the egg that may or may not share memory with the cow. We change their diet. We transport them. We supplement them. We stimulate them to grow. We house them. We leave the calves on or pull them off to suit ourselves. We change the size and shape of the calves to suit ourselves. We change the season of calving...When aj tells me it can't be done in one generation, I see what he means. The easiest way to optimize performance might be to minimize disturbance.
http://books.google.com/books?id=sSAwbd8qOAAC&lpg=PA47&dq=Environment%20and%20phenotype&pg=PA47#v=onepage&q=Environment%20and%20phenotype&f=false

 

[aj]

Interesting.........I wunder.........bison bison(todays modern buffalo).......were naturally selected for at least 5,000 years. So todays buffalo producers.......do they take weaning or yearling weights? And will they......through selection......change the buffalo? Or would man just screw up a 5,000 year natural selection process?