Blue Roan Question/Advice?

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dknupp

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I have a really  nice Blue Roan cow (Ali X Double Stuff) that I bought from a buddy to originally be used as a recip cow because she was open this fall (along with almost all of his herd!).  She did not take an embryo this fall, but is cycling fine with good CL.  I decided to keep her and breed her because she is a flat out nice young cow.  I have no experience breeding something with these color genes.  She calved from a hereford clean up bull last year and the calf was perfectly marked hereford calf.  Two Questions:

1.  Explain to me how genetically that calf looked like a Hereford
2.  What kind of Clubby bulls would you bred her too to get crazy colors?
3.  How about getting another Blue Roan?

I have not had her tested but would assume she is a carrier for one if not both TH and PHA.  She has huge bone and foot and shag!  Make your recommendations based on both free and carrier outcomes.  I'll get her tested before I bred this spring. 

This is my little science project!  All recommendations are welcome regardless how crazy!
 

LLBUX

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Lots going on genetically with that hereford-marked calf.  Red genes carried through.

For color you can use Indian Outlaw, Tiger Woods or Eye candy.

Moody Blues is a blue roan bull that shows potential.  No ida if the blue would breed through.

Good luck!
 

AndersenClubCalves

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Well Ahlin Cattle Company in Utah owns a bull Called Drill Bit he is solid black but i heard he brings out the color in everything. He sired the promotional bull at Denever named Cool Whip.
 

leanbeef

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Hey, I have a blue roan that also threw a red calf last year, although mine was solid red. Still, based on that calf, you can make some educated assumptions about her genetics for color: she's heterozygous black (because she produced a red calf); therefore, she carries a red gene; and she's heterozygous for the roan gene (since that gene is dominant and that calf wasn't roan). Knowing what she is, you can make some decisions about what to use on her based on what you hope to get out of her...

A homozygous black bull will keep you from getting another red calf (if you don't want a red calf). She has a 50% chance of contributing a red gene to her offspring, but if the sire is homozygous black and transmits a dominant black gene, you won't see the red in the calf. A heterozygous black bull on that cow will produce a red calf 25% of the time, so 1 in 4 calves would be red. Using a red bull on her would give you a 50/50 chance of red or black + consideration of the roan (white) gene, depending on whether only the cow or both parents carried that gene.

The cow should also transmit the gene for roan to 50% of her calves. If you want a roan, you might increase the chance of getting one by breeding her to a blue roan, but you'll also create the possibility that both parents could transmit the white gene (the gene that causes roaning) and you could get a calf that basically looks like a white Shorthorn.

You might consider something like a black baldy Simmental or Simmental influenced bull that carries a spot gene... the calf in my profile pic is out of a blue roan Angus x Shorthorn cow and a black blaze faced Simmental bull with a spot gene...she's had two of these calves marked almost identically out of two different bulls, but both times the sire was a black blaze faced Simmental bull. I thought the calves were pretty cool looking.
 

Davidsonranch

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What about Rainmaker or young Money.  I've been considering both of them on a roan cow.  Seen a few rainmaker calves but nothing out of Young Money.  Does he have any calves out yet?
 

kfacres

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Your cow is a very basic blue roan- the roaning gene is actually an incomplete dominance of red and white together- where one copy is inherited from each parent—and together they make a roan.  The genetic combo of your cow is Bw (Roan is Rw).  She received a copy of the black B gene from her sire- and a copy of Shorthorn white w from her dam.  

Last year when mated to the Herf bull- she most likely contributed the white gene- and b/c he stuck in red—red trumps white—but the herf pattern is dominate over all other colors—so it was also expressed.  If the cow would have contributed her black gene- then you would have resulted in a basic BWF calf.  Nothing special here.

I don’t really get what you are meaning by crazy colors—there are only three options for color- black, white, or red.  Not purple, or green, or pink…  That would be crazy.  If you are meaning color patterns- you are opening up doors that most of the time don’t need opened.  Mate her for positive traits first- then worry about color< IMO.  

To me the craziest and most unique color pattern to result would mate her to a red factor char bull.  This result in either a smoke calf, or a blonde roan.  It would also keep you by default from of genetic defects.  

If you mate her back to a blue roan bull- you have a 25% chance of making a solid black (my luck), 25% chance of a white- and a 50% chance of a blue roan.  

If you mated her to a Shorthorn, you could get red roans, blue roans, whites, or blacks.  

If you breed her to a white shorthorn, you’d get 50% chance of white, 50% chance of blue roan

It never amazes me at the stupidity of people when involving the Indian Outlaw bull.  He’s nothing more than a red roan bull expressing the Herf color pattern- and IMO that’s the only reason he was promoted- and the biggest factor behind the sale of his semen.  I’d guess that 90% of the calves I have seen by him- have been basic black white faced—the same thing accomplishable by using a Purebred Sim, or Herf/ Angus cross.  

So far, tiger Woods is the only clean bull suggested- although I’m not sure about the sire of Coolwhip.  

I agree with leanbeef- in that you should throw the spotter gene into the mix, although I’m not certain if the animal must receive two copies of that gene or not to express it.  That’s IMO about the only way to result in some, truly crazy color.  I’ve got a shorthorn cross bull calf at home that’s a carrier and shows the spotter gene that would work wonders on something like this—but I don’t know that I want to piddle around with trying to sell him as a bull.  
 

dknupp

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BS, great advice and great explanations!  Yes, I mean crazy color patterns.  And of course the two things that trump all of this is making sure I breed according to phenotypical traits and defects.  I just want to have a little fun with this cow is all.  Plus she is pretty good and tame as a lab.
 

kfacres

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obviously joking on the color-- i know what you meant.. (lol)

going to guess and say you're mostly focused on club calves with this cow-- but recently I asked about red bulls- and got a whole list of red factored char bulls mentioned- not really what I was looking for- but it may pay off into the future.  here's the link.  http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index.php?topic=35973.0

To tell you a story- I once had a blue roan Double Stuff/ WMW cow- and two years in a row was mated to a black bull-- that resulted in red roan calves.  the first year was a black Maine bull, the second a black Sim bull-- I'm guessing that the only explanation was both bulls were hetero for black- and in both cases contributed the red gene into the calf.  The cow on the other hand, contributed the roan gene (better known as shorthorn white) to the calf; which magically created two almost identical red roans. 

The shorthorn white, and char white are different genes- char white will not make roans; but will dilute.  I think that by using a red factor char bull- you'll get diluted blonde roans-- which are a little different...
 

mark tenenbaum

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You could breed her to the Ohlde blue roan-Jakes Blue pride,Young Money or something like that-I think Ohio breeder posted a pic of Ohldes bull awhile back-he looked good and thick,and is available on cattle visions or SEK-1 or the other.-Stay AWay from carriers or youll have a train wreck. O0
 

CBowlin

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Bree her to texas twister from lautner and you should get a crazy patterned calf.
 

kfacres

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CBowlin said:
Bree her to texas twister from lautner and you should get a crazy patterned calf.

good chance if he's owned by Lautner, he's a carrier for something.  The other day while flipping through their catalog-- I think there were 4 bulls that were free both ways???
 

dknupp

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yeah that TT Lautner bull is a HW son and a carrier.  I'll get her tested, but I'm pretty sure she is dirty for something (argue).  That Drill Bit bull has me intrigued.  A friction grandson so he is clean on the top side.  Maybe dirty on the bottom and I can't find any status online anywhere on him.  Does anyone know?
 

GKE Cattle

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We love our blue roans,,kind of a marriage of our Angus and Shorthorn past.  You are on the right course,,get her tested first!!!    We also had a hereford x blue roan calf a couple of years ago,,,only thing was ours was makred like a herf but the body was blue roan,,really a cute calf.  So we are thinking no red in ours anymore.  Blue raon is pretty strong and I have seen cattle with only a 1/16 shorthorn still throwing roan calves.
  Before we tested our cows we just used a clean bull,,,Total Solution hit really well on ours and they are breed alittle like yours.  The calves were bigger than normal for Total Solution and we think that is part due to the Double Stuff.  Ours were maybe more black roan then blue but we did get some nice chrome in the right spots and there was still that touch of roan.  I know TS semen is going up in price, but here is a proven clean bull that might work for you,,,JUST my suggestion.
 

kfacres

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Cow Chaser said:
Seems to me that you see a lot of colored up calves out of Monopoly, I don't know if that is coming from him or the cow?

it's due to the fact that he is sired by HW, a bull who's a carrier of red... and to the fact that Mono.. much like his daddy is getting bred to cows of all shapes, sizes and COLORS- remember the cow is half the equation...  All he needs to do is put red into the mix, the cow makes most of the crazy color patterns... 
 

GKE Cattle

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It's not that I don't like Monopoly guys.  But until they get a TH test on that cow, they better becareful, or the whole discusion could be a mute point.  You know--dead calf, maybe dead calf a c-section bill and ruined cow, dead calf dead cow and a vet bill.   Been there done all of that.    We have a blue roan cow we were thinking about to Monopoly so you can see I am all  for the mating.  But our minds changed when the cow came back a TH carrier.   If you want to get some Monopoly breeding use Tiger Woods (THF and PHAF).  Plus some pretty nice calves and plenty of color.  That is the way we plan to go.
 

kfacres

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GKE Cattle said:
It's not that I don't like Monopoly guys.  But until they get a TH test on that cow, they better becareful, or the whole discusion could be a mute point.  You know--dead calf, maybe dead calf a c-section bill and ruined cow, dead calf dead cow and a vet bill.   Been there done all of that.    We have a blue roan cow we were thinking about to Monopoly so you can see I am all  for the mating.  But our minds changed when the cow came back a TH carrier.   If you want to get some Monopoly breeding use Tiger Woods (THC and PHAC).  Plus some pretty nice calves and plenty of color.  That is the way we plan to go.

pretty sure you mean THF AND PHAF
 

GKE Cattle

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YES I did "MY BAD"  matter of fact I was on my way home from town and realized what I had typed!!!  So I am on here right away to correst it.  I ment to say Tiger Woods is TH free and PHA free.  Some times I call the cattle clean and dirty,,and in the back of my mind the C ment clean!!!
Again I am sorry for mis-typing something as impotant as this,,but glad you caught it and understood what it should have said.
 
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