Bulls

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Good cattle and bad cattle always existed. It's called "normal distribution curve of a population". So some usefull bulls from past - 60's or 70's - will to great for today....as well as many modern actual bulls are steers with nuts!

The unique difference is that these old good bulls are very rare today to find.....also, some bulls can work well for me, but not for you.

Simple!

 

[r.n.reed]

I have enjoyed this discussion as well.Not the most flattering picture of the Defender I have seen but he was a very old bull when the neighbors shetland pony kicked him in the knee and they had to ship him as a result of that injury.I took that picture of Promise A Chief on one of my visits to the ranch.I was also the last person on earth to speak with Mary Bell.We had spoken for about an hour when she started to sound anxious and finally confessed that she was late for an Elks meeting.
Little did she know that she had a much more important meeting that night!
It appears to me that the biggest part of the Native programs have used Haumont cows as their foundation and used old''Beef'' sires on them.It is good that this resource was still available.
I do not have a native program but have used a little old semen in my herd with decent results.The red bull is Double Brute a 2 yr old son of Frontline the bull in my Avatar,Brute's dam is a daughter of Kenmar President 26a out of the dam of my 108 bull making Double Brute double bred to 26a.The roan bull is Weston Surprise.I had a daughter of this bull which has since been sold but I have 2 daughters of her by Frontline and one has a real good daughter by Double Brute.I have a decent inventory of several of these old bulls that I hope to try when I think they can compliment my program.

 

[librarian]

The roan bull is Weston Surprise.

Mr. Kaper
I LIKE THAT ROAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He is so thick and all that curly hair on his head. I bet he is going to be so good.
Also, on Native bull progeny, I just had my bull HHFS Amos tested for TH and PHA and he tested free on both.  He is ET out of Remitall Choice Mint who shares some genetics not too far back with Clipper King of USA.  So, we just have to test.  I used Zoetis and they have no DS test as yet, but I'm going to do that one too.  I haven't spent the money to join ASA so the results will not go to the Association until I do--which I guess I better do.

 

[r.n.reed]

CSB, as you know a conversation with Mary Bell was time well spent.Iron sharpens iron.
Librarian,unfortunately I only purchased 2 units of the Surprise bull so his influence will be limited to the 2 grandaughters I have in the herd.Their mother by the way was out of the dam of 4508.
Glad to hear the results on your bull, the Clipper King TH thing sure opened a new chapter in the book.It would sure be interesting to find out the source of that deal.
Yes you should join the ASA,we could use more breeders of your bent

 

[librarian]

Mr Kaper,
Sorry I guess when I join ASA I should also break down and buy some real glasses so I can see what I am reading.  I now see that the roan bull IS Weston Surprise.  I thought he was a son that you had bred out of one of your cows. I was all excited about that.  Well, at least I can still see well enough to recognize a good old style bull.
Do you have pictures of the grand daughters?  I would like to see them as much to see the 4508 dam influence as the Surprise influence.  The dam of What A Surprise is supposed to be a really good cow. Maid Of Promise H 189th.

 

[r.n.reed]

I don't have any pictures of the grandaughters  but will try to get you some in the near future.Check out this pedigree 4207660.

 

[librarian]

Can someone tell the story of the Butte Lee Shorthorns and the breeder A. E. Philpott?
Butte Lee is the bottom side of Weston Surprise.

I found this when I was trying to learn about Lynnwood and Riverside,

"Grandpa still won’t talk about when Purdue University sold his father’s Polled Shorthorns. It took my father a decade to talk about the selling of the farm. Even though I was just learning to ride a bike when the creeks were tiled out and all the flat-black dirt was hauled off and rearranged for the houses and golf course, it has taken me months to get still enough to write this. What do I do with this sadness I inherited, this sadness that has nothing to do with me and everything to do with my blood and bones? Lynnwood Farm is gone and there is no way now to cut through those acres with an old six-bottom plow. No place to fit show steers, nowhere to break them to lead. The neighborhood association would not tolerate the scent of Berkshire hogs."

whole essay: Losing Ground
https://www.wabash.edu/magazine/displaystory.cfm?news_id=1279

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Some time ago, I saw on a old pedigree paper that Butte Lee Fairy 7th (dam of Kinnaber Leader 9th and 6th) show an asterisk.....but never got to understand why shw got it as on ASA web site, she is clean.

 

[librarian]

Thanks for posting the black and white photos.  These are circa?  Who is the white bull?

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

IMG2902 is an amazing heifer....massive....best for me.
Also amazing bull - Catalyst I think.
Thanks for share.

 

[Okotoks]

Some time ago, I saw on a old pedigree paper that Butte Lee Fairy 7th (dam of Kinnaber Leader 9th and 6th) show an asterisk.....but never got to understand why shw got it as on ASA web site, she is clean.

Butte Lee Fairy 7th is a 100% pure shorthorn pedigree. She was bred and raised in Saskatchewan, Canada before the herd book was opened to any outside bloodlines. I am not sure of her birthdate but her son the 9th was born June, 1966.

 

[r.n.reed]

For the Librarian, the Riverside and Lynwood herds were basically extensions of the Hultine Collynie breeding program.I have attached a couple pictures of Hultine bulls used by Lynwood.The best thing that ever happened as far as I am concerned is that the Polled breeders had to keep some of this old blood to maintain the polled trait.
From what I have found the old breeders pre pony basically built their herds by crossing the Whitehall Sultan and Roselawn Marshall lines.Think Trump X Rodeo Drive etc.Fairy 7th carried some of this blood and bred to 21 whose sire was linebred to the old magic cross produced Leader 9th.
Kenmar President 26a's pedigree has an even stronger tie back through his dams sire and maternal grandsire.

 

[oakview]

I always noticed the way they used to retouch those old photos by making the lower rear quarter more round and adding the bushy tail.  That technique is very apparent in the one photo.  I've got old magazines full of those retouched pictures.  Every now and then, someone would include the words "unretouched photo" in their ad.

I am happy that these genetics are being rediscovered, but hope people aren't expecting too much.  Shorthorns were criticized 40-50 years ago for being too fat, having patches around their tail heads, and not having enough muscle (small ribeyes).  We used almost all of the bulls discussed here.  It was quite an accomplishment to wean 500 pound calves at that time.  We hoped our steers would weigh 500 pounds and would bring 60 cents a pound.  The Leader 21 line helped with the performance a little, but really didn't add any muscle that we noticed.  He really became popular because of the show cattle he sired, along with his son, Leader 6th, most notably.  I'm using a Leader 9th son on heifers, so far so good, but the resulting calves are not comparable in performance to the others.  Not even close.  I just keep in mind what I want to accomplish with the genetics I use.

 

[librarian]

Those are great pictures of the Hultine bulls and very interesting.  The top bull, especially, has an unusual head of a shape that I have seen several times in my wanderings through the old books.  It is the kind of head that a Red Poll bull has.
I know it's off topic, but here are some Red Poll bull pictures.  Maybe I'm way off, maybe not. 
Mississippi Agricultural  Experiment Station Bulletin No. 76
http://books.google.com/books?id=6s02AQAAIAAJ&dq=red%20poll%20cattle&pg=RA5-PA49#v=onepage&q=red%20poll%20cattle&f=false

Farmers' Bulletin, Issue 1779
http://books.google.com/books?id=9JFvEUCCU9YC&dq=red%20polled%20bull&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q=red%20polled%20bull&f=false
I can't find the photo that nails it, but I will.

 

[oakview]

I am thankful everyone has their own goals.  It would be very boring if we all had the same type of cattle.  I think it's great that there are genetics available to mold the type of beast that fits anyone's goals. 

Funny you should mention "good heads."  The first cow I purchased, actually Dad bought her for me and registered her in my name since I was only 9, was Lady Anna 2761109.  That was in 1964 and I believe she was over 10 years old.  I still have her pedigree somewhere.  She had the first purebred Shorthorn calf at Oakview Shorthorns (known for the first several years as Circle F).  It was sired by SV Caesar 25th, a son of Louada Caesar who was sired by Bapton Constructor.  I remember how disappointed I was in that calf because it had a "bad head."  The "bad head" came from the cow.  I later bought a daughter of Louada Aristocrat that had a bull calf at side sired by Scotsdale Arrogant.  They both had "good heads."  Though she had a good head, I don't think that cow ever weaned a calf over 400 pounds.  My first show heifer was from the Thede Ranch, Clara 141st, sired by Meadowview Constructor, another son of Bapton Constructor.  Ted Aegerter, Jeff's Dad, picked up several heifer calves for us at the Meadowview Ranch sale in South Dakota.  I still have the sale ticket, she cost $200.  She had a good head, too, and placed 3rd in a class of about a dozen at the county fair.  She never raised a calf.  I think my eye for cattle has improved over the past 50 years.  At least I hope so!

Lots of good memories in this topic. 

 

[librarian]

Oh well, can't find it.  Truly they are all the same if you dig deep enough through the British breeds.

 

[r.n.reed]

I always noticed the way they used to retouch those old photos by making the lower rear quarter more round and adding the bushy tail.  That technique is very apparent in the one photo.  I've got old magazines full of those retouched pictures.  Every now and then, someone would include the words "unretouched photo" in their ad.

I am happy that these genetics are being rediscovered, but hope people aren't expecting too much.  Shorthorns were criticized 40-50 years ago for being too fat, having patches around their tail heads, and not having enough muscle (small ribeyes).  We used almost all of the bulls discussed here.  It was quite an accomplishment to wean 500 pound calves at that time.  We hoped our steers would weigh 500 pounds and would bring 60 cents a pound.  The Leader 21 line helped with the performance a little, but really didn't add any muscle that we noticed.  He really became popular because of the show cattle he sired, along with his son, Leader 6th, most notably.  I'm using a Leader 9th son on heifers, so far so good, but the resulting calves are not comparable in performance to the others.  Not even close.  I just keep in mind what I want to accomplish with the genetics I use.

Oakview, your last line is good advise and I would ad that if the genetics don"t do the job clean them out.
I feel that weights by themselves are meaningless with out taking into account the whole production scenario that produced them.
If you believe Bob Gordon and what he wrote in his book he was selling Leader 21 and 9th bulls and lots of semen to many of the big ranches out west and they came back for more long before the show demand kicked in.He also mentioned that when he sold them  bulls from a different strain that was a little more ''modern'' the business shut off.
Using these native bulls because they are native is the wrong approach and they are definitley not a sure avenue of improvement.I have really studied them and am batting 50% on cattle that have contributed in a reliable positive way.I appreciate what CSB is doing by setting goals for his program and finding the components to achieve those goals.
One more thing that struck me reading Gordons book was the fact that the biggest part of his Kinnaber show herd came from 3 different herds right in the heart of Shorthorn country in Missouri.These herds had been in existance for many decades right under everyone"s nose and it took some guy hauling them north of the border breeding them to each other and hauling the offspring down to  Denver before they were ''discovered''.

 

[librarian]

Who is that roan bull in the head shot?  I'd like to see the rest of him.
In what decade was it that Shorthorns fell from favor with the commercial producers?  Was this before or after Herefords fell from favor? When did feedlots really get going strong?  How was management different when
Shorthorns were more viable commercially?

 

[Dale]

We used Cat 20, as Harold Thieman called him, a little bit.  We had purchased and used a son of the 20th, TPS Coronet Catalyst 45 as our 2nd polled bull.  Catalyst 20th had scurs and Harold said he was a 100% dehorner--someone on this board (who is highly qualified) said that is not possible, but that is how Harold told it. 

Harold's favorite herd bull was Coronet Max Leader.  If I had semen on that bull, I'd certainly be using it.  Older genetics may be some of the pieces of the puzzle....

 

[beebe]

Nice heads. I know every one does have a different eye for cattle. Just showing what I am aiming for. I worked for a guy and calved out 1000 angus/shorthorn/hereford cows every year. I did or hope I learned alot and am going to try to use what I learn. And I do know you can have a bad head and a good animal and good head bad animal, but when you take 100 good headed heifers or steers to the sale barn verses bad heads you get much, much more for good heads. Of course you need a good frame too that's able to equally carry weight from back to front.

Do you consider Cat 20 to have a good head?