calving help!

[cdl]

We have lost five calves this year. three  were out of heat wave clones, and two out of heat wave sons. All have been born without an umbilical cord attached as if it broke off inside the navel. Three came a week or two early and two were full term. I am wondering if any of you have ideas about the umbilical cord problem, is it genetic or is there something i am missing in our vaccination program? The calves were born alive but would not suck or get going.

 

[JTM]

Sounds a little strange to me. I've never heard of that before. Is there a possibility that the cows are eating the imbilical cord off before you see it? One suggestion I might give is to get a milk "dumper", by some colostrum from the store or local dairy farmer, and make sure every calf gets dumped with some colostrum if you don't see them nurse within 10 hours. This will get them the needed nutrients to fight off any germs early in life and will give them the energy to get up and nurse later when they get hungry. It is especially important on larger calves and distocia after being born. Also, you may need to look at your feeding program for your cows. Are they getting enough quality hay, salt, and mineral? This will ensure healthier calves when they hit the ground. I hope things change for you!

 

[cdl]

Thanks for the response. Three of them lived long enough for us to get colostrum into them but died within a couple of days. we feed corn stalks, and oat hay, and we supplement with moormans mineral/protien block. the cows have looked in good flesh all winter. we vaccinated for vibrio and lepto and we sent samples from one of the calves  to the University of Arizona and they didn't find anything wrong.

 

[twistedhshowstock]

I have never heard these kind of problems with these bulls.  Yeah they throw big calves and that can cause issues, but if the calf comes out ok and the cows are ok you are generally good.  What are the pedigrees on the cows?  Anything different this year from last year for the cows?  How bad were you guys affected by all the drought or were you affected?

 

[chambero]

Were you physically present when all of these calves were born?  Why do you think there was an umbilical cord problem?

If you had an umbilical cord problem inside the cow, the calves would have suffocated and been born dead.  If it had broken more than a day or two before birth, you would have had a rotten mess.

Why were you having to give them colustrum?  Were they not up sucking on their own at all?  I never have had any signfiicant calving problems with Heat Wave or his sons. What you can have a problem with is "big dumb bull calf" syndrome - the term I believe was coined by DL.  Some of those calves just don't have a lot of get up and go and it you aren't babying them, they die of dehydration.  I'm guessing that's what got them. 

And by the way, you lost five out of how many?

 

[cdl]

Drought was not an issue, they are on irrigated pasture and fed hay. Three of the calves came 12-14 days early and i was not there when they were born. One we had to pull and wieghed 100 lbs and the other, I checked the cow and she was fine, checked her 4 hours later and she had calved and was up licking her 120lb  dead calf.  Cow is doing fine. All of the calves were born alive but would not suck or get up, two would get up and walk but not suck. None of the calves had an umbiical cord hanging, it was broken off  inside the navel and the navel was swollen. They all behaved like big dumb calves, but the calves born early were not big. We have lost 5 of 15

 

[SWMO]

Feeding anything that is high in Nitrates?

 

[cdl]

We have been feeding sweet corn stalks and oat hay. We did not test the hay for nitrates. Would high nitrates show up in the post mortem tissue that was sent to U of Az?

 

[GoWyo]

for nitrate test usually have to submit the eyeball or fluid from the eyeball of the calf

 

[JTM]

Were you physically present when all of these calves were born?  Why do you think there was an umbilical cord problem?

If you had an umbilical cord problem inside the cow, the calves would have suffocated and been born dead.  If it had broken more than a day or two before birth, you would have had a rotten mess.

Why were you having to give them colustrum?  Were they not up sucking on their own at all?  I never have had any signfiicant calving problems with Heat Wave or his sons. What you can have a problem with is "big dumb bull calf" syndrome - the term I believe was coined by DL.  Some of those calves just don't have a lot of get up and go and it you aren't babying them, they die of dehydration.  I'm guessing that's what got them. 

And by the way, you lost five out of how many?

Chambero is right. After you give the initial colostrum you will need to give another dose of colostrum in 12 hours if the calf has not started nursing on it's own. I always get the calf up and try to get the teet in the mouth if necessary and get it to start nursing. You will need to start feeding the calf (milk replacer) every 12 hours if they don't get up and nurse. Make sure you witness the calf nursing, don't try to convince yourself that the calf is nursing when nobody is looking. This is all unfortunate and unacceptable in a commercial cattle setting, but that is not the genetics you are using. My experience is that with these show cattle genetics you will have a lot more circumstances like this. Again, I hope things work out better for ya!

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

I'm sure someone like DL could shed more light on this, but it sounds like a deficiency in the cows' diets. Being that the rate of the issue is so high, I can't help but think it isn't just bad luck. If all the calves were pulled, I might think that was the issue, but they way you described the situation sounds like there is a weakness/ defect related to the navel and/or umbilical cord. I don't know which sort of mineral or vitamin might be lacking, but it doesn't take much of a deficiency to cause problems in a developing fetus. The last calf we lost was about 3 years ago and it was a hard pull that tore the umbilical cord out of the calf. We sewed it up and the calf was up and nursing for a day, but the next day it swelled up like a softball and the calf died. Vet said there is not much you can do if the cord is torn out.  Sorry for your stretch of trouble.

 

[frostback]

I'm sure someone like DL could shed more light on this, but it sounds like a deficiency in the cows' diets. Being that the rate of the issue is so high, I can't help but think it isn't just bad luck. If all the calves were pulled, I might think that was the issue, but they way you described the situation sounds like there is a weakness/ defect related to the navel and/or umbilical cord. I don't know which sort of mineral or vitamin might be lacking, but it doesn't take much of a deficiency to cause problems in a developing fetus. The last calf we lost was about 3 years ago and it was a hard pull that tore the umbilical cord out of the calf. We sewed it up and the calf was up and nursing for a day, but the next day it swelled up like a softball and the calf died. Vet said there is not much you can do if the cord is torn out.  Sorry for your stretch of trouble.

Could you explain a little farther of what you sewed up? Last time I checked once a calf is out they dont need the cord anymore so I am not understanding it being tore out. Its made to break or tear at brith.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

Yes it is. But if it tears out forcefully, it can leave a hole in the calf's belly. It is meant to break or tear outside the body and dry up and fall off, not rip internally. When ours happened, we sewed up the hole left in the navel, or rather where the navel should have been. This, however, did not fix the damage that occurred internally because the calf did not go through the natural progression of loosing what was left of the cord. At the time, we did not realize the extent of internal damage the calf suffered and because he was up and going, we didn't consider that it might be worse than we first thought.

 

[frostback]

Did you do a necropsy on it? Was that what killed him for sure? Just trying to learn, not question your program.

 

[cdl]

Thanks for your replies. To answer you questions: we have been feeding moormans mineral/protien blocks all winter, the cows look healthy and in good flesh. We sent tissue samples from one calf to the University of Arizona that included heart, lungs, liver, kidneys and stomach fluid. They didn't find anything wrong. the common denominator here is that on each calf the navel cord was broke off up inside the navel.

 

[cdl]

Also we were tubing them with colostrum milked from the cow about every six hours

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

Did you do a necropsy on it? Was that what killed him for sure? Just trying to learn, not question your program.

No. It was the only calf we have lost in over 5 years. Since the huge hole in his abdomen seemed to be the only thing wrong with it, we did not persue it further. Based on what our vet said, is was the most likely cause of death. Also, a necropsy did not seem reasonable as it was a crossbred bull calf.