can't register calves

[firesweepranch]

before we flush a papered cow we always do the DNA work and have results back before we flush because you just never ever know what DNA work may show......
even a cow born on our own place has the off chance of something not checking out.

would assume that before flushing and for sure before marketing embryos on a national stage you would absolutely have the DNA work in hand before the sale to
avoid a situation that is embarrassing as this one is.

This is exactly what the ASA requires. ALL dams must be DNA verified before even flushing. Unfortunately, not everyone follows the rules and you end up with the mess these unfortunate people are in. I would be angry if I was in that position, and all that really needs to be done is the donor needs to be registered (not as a registered simmental, but just as having her DNA on file). I am a bit confused, since it sounds like her DNA was sent in, but they could not confirm her back to her sire (Macho). So, big deal, move on and put her sire as unknown and record the DNA and genetic status. Maybe the dam owner has not paid their fees? The ASA will not release the data until all dues are paid. If her DNA was truly sent in, they should have it on file to get what is needed to get the calves registered.
Now, as far as registering the resulting calves. It is NOT dishonest to register them as half bloods. The donor of the eggs has an unknown pedigree, which is the same as a commercial cow. Either way, the calf should be issued half blood papers, with the dam listed as commercial. There is nothing dishonest about that. Accidents happen, and someone is not being honest. But that does not mean that the resulting embryo calves are not half blood decent, correct (they did DNA back to Broker)? If the genetic status is the hold up, test all three embryo calves for the genetic diseases, and get their papers.
How to handle the issue of embryos being sold that are not as promised, that is an entirely different issue that needs to be dealt with between the buyer and seller. If the seller sold them as a middle man, then they need to go to the original source of who produced the embryos to make things right.

 

[ferkj]

This is getting to be as confusing as Cunia 602 or My Turn.
This sounds like a case for Judge Judy...she ain't afraid to ask " Who be the babies momma daddy?" 

 

[firesweepranch]

Just want to point out that according to original post it would appear you bought eggs from polzin not Thomas's correct..or am I wrong

since you asked.... Thomas pointed the finger at Chris and said he should of had her dna tested before he flushed her. I talked to Chris before buying embryos, I assumed Chris had all the ducks in a row because he talked about how this macho daughter has produced high sellers for Thomas, and how he thinks this is a great mating...I also think this is a learning experience for Chris, because I purchased them in a Polzin embryo sale, and I feel he should have checked all of this out before putting his name on them! Thomas is the owner/breeder on Registration, but Thomas told me they purchased her as a heifer, idk who they got her from...
  at the end of the day I think Thomas is liable for damages... what is your thoughts on this?

According to her papers, Thomas owned her from birth, since they are the only names on her papers (https://herdbook.org/simmapp/action/animalSearch.AnimalSearchAction?eventSubmit_displayAnimal=T&animalNumber=2414144). Now, they may have bought the pair, since the dam of the donor is unregistered and just listed as a PB Angus. But Thomas Simmentals are who registered the donor and her dam. What likely is the case is that they bought the Donor's dam, bred or with a calf, and were told the calf (donor) was a Macho sired calf. They registered without DNA verification on the calf, and I bet the calf (donor) was sired by the clean up bull instead. Mistakes happen, but the papers are still up on the donor (check the link above) and not withheld.
Hilltop, for the value of the calves you have, I would just register them as half bloods, and have the genetic status checked on each one so you can get papers and move on. That is IF they DNA'd back to Broker.
Now as far as compensation, if I was the donor owner in that situation, I would offer to pay for the genetic testing on the three calves you want to register, and give you half your money back you paid for the embryos (since you did get three pregnancies, and they are at least half bloods).
It is a bad situation regardless. I hope you can get the resolution you are wanting.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

Get your money back??? Are you planning to send them back the resulting calves you have? I get that they might be worth a bit less than you thought originally, but damages seems a bit out of line. I suppose you could come up with a valuation for them as the pedigree said and a valuation for what you have in front of you and then ask for the difference, but that might not be really fair to both parties either. I think in this case, there are just to many middle men and the situation is not getting addressed as it probably would if you were dealing with Troy directly.

http://www.bootjackcattleco.net/home

the website says all of these heart warming things like ''Quality before quantity with an emphasis on performance and docility!'' does that not apply to embryos? or ''Our beef herd consists of a group of proven performing cow families that consistently produce outstanding replacement stock.'' does that not apply to embryos? or ''Tested genetic defect free.'' does that not apply to embryos? or ''Strong breed charicterisics on both sides of the isle'' does this not apply to embryos? If this stuff has no value then why post this info? <cowboy> 

And we stand behind that. We also don't sell embryos, so I'm not sure what your point is. You have a product, if you don't like it, you RETURN it to get a refund! You can't expect something for nothing, you will always be disappointed. We have been on the receiving end of a mess sort of like this. We bought a heifer from another reputable LIMI breeder here in WI, and she would not settle via AI or with a live bull. Breeder was informed, and would do nothing despite NALF bylaws about such matters. We ended up shipping the female and cutting our losses. To this day, we still do not buy anything more from that breeder. I also won't post the name here publicly for all to see and judge.

I did suggest a way to make up the difference in my first post, but you were to busy trying to dig up dirt on my family's program to read it through???? I can suggest what I would do in your position, that of Thomas and Polzin's as well, but at the end of the day, that's all it is and we can't fix it for you.

I have the utmost respect for most posters on this forum, but PERSONAL attacks like this will be the reason I will NEVER log on to this site again after this post. Thanks again for turning away yet another user because YOU got the short end on a business deal and took it public!

 

[Till-Hill]

That short end of the deal is why a lot of people come here. If someone would have taken care of business the OP would never had to tell us. In a way I am very disapointed to hear this as I have been trying to buy some eggs. Now I know to stay away from some people and to do some research and make sure that small tab on the ASA site says APPROVED FOR DONOR COW  (BEFORE I BUY!)

 

[husker1]

Ok, I've read enough and have to chime in here....

People need to realize....there are much more important things than money!!!!

This fellow bought a certain mating, and probably paid a pretty good price for the embryos.  Granted, he did a great job placing in quality recips and got 3 resulting calves.  But the mating IS NOT what he paid good money for!!!

Simple solution....buyer gets his money back.  He is free to do whatever he wants with the calves.  If he gets them registered as 1/2 bloods and makes good money, great for him.  He was faced with many hurdles to make that profit.

Bottom line is he made a purchase of one particular mating...did not get that mating.  Odds are very high that he wouldn't have paid near the purchase price for Broker embryos from a miscellaneous unknown donor!

Not my place to say who owes him the money....i'd assume whoever got the proceeds from the sale.

That's mine opinion and how we operate around here.  Customer will always be treated fairly, even if it is a loss to us.

Many things more important that money!

Have a swell Easter, everyone!

 

[OH Breeder]

Get your money back??? Are you planning to send them back the resulting calves you have? I get that they might be worth a bit less than you thought originally, but damages seems a bit out of line. I suppose you could come up with a valuation for them as the pedigree said and a valuation for what you have in front of you and then ask for the difference, but that might not be really fair to both parties either. I think in this case, there are just to many middle men and the situation is not getting addressed as it probably would if you were dealing with Troy directly.

Renting or placing eggs in recips is not cheap. If I were to pay higher price than normal to get "a" calf. It would not go the embryo route. The gentleman I used was 1000 plus a live calf at pick up. To buy three recips would be more plus housing etc. To just get "run of mill" donor who is not what she is suppose to be is a sticky situation. You really don't get something for free in this situation because you used recips that could have carried eggs of more value in the end. If you bought a new Ford truck and found out it had no radio,  4 wheel drive or automatic transmission and no power windows after you paid for all those upgrades would you think about some adjustment on price? It was the good practice of the individual or his embryo person that got such a great yield on live embryos. I don't see him as greedy in anyway.