color questions. Can a Char produce a blue roan?

[kfacres]

breed a blue roan, to a purebred white char..

any chance of a blue roan?  I'm thinking not... as the char white, and the shorthorn white are different colors..  

If the blue bull did push the Black gene, and the roan gene (even though it is a incomplete dominace of white and black/ red).. would the calf be a diluted blue roan?

 

[mainegirl]

Don't know if this helps answer your question but I have a smoke cow out of JPJ. Her mother is out of Yahtzee and is a light colored smoke. We bred her to I-80 and got a dark blue roan.

 

[leanbeef]

I think you're right...theoretically, the calf should be diluted no matter what gene the sire transmits. I'm thinking that could be really ugly!

I was taught in Genetics that cattle have two genes that determine color, and there are three different genes for color: black which is dominant, red which is recessive, and white which is co-dominant and like you said, not what Charolais are. My understanding was that one white gene and one for black or red make a roan... two genes for white make a white shorthorn which would produce all roans when mated to a black or red. I have a blue roan cow that's 1/2 Angus and 1/4 Shorthorn that raised a solid red heifer last year, which makes me think the cow has a dominant black gene and a recessive red gene, and that makes two...I don't know where the roan comes from. Her mother was a true red roan Double Stuff daughter, so I know where it CAME from...what I mean is I'm a little interested to understand how she can be a blue roan and produce a solid red calf, which should have two copies of the red gene for coat color. I had expected the cow got a black gene from her Angus sire and the white gene from her red roan mother, and that she would only produce black, blue roan or red roan calves. The red daughter does have a white belly and white tail, and I'm wondering if that's how the white or roan gene has manifested itself in her...maybe she could produce a blue roan out of a black bull? I have seen two calves out of the same cow family that were definitely roan with no roan parents...out of purebred Simmies. And they aren't Shorthorn...I AIed both cows and I KNOW what was printed on the straw.

Anyway...interesting question. I love talking color genetics. What I really want to know is about the spot gene in Simmies and how/if it's connected somehow to the genes that make baldies, white feet and white tails!

 

[kfacres]

several years ago, had a blue roan double stuff daughter mated one year to a black sim... produce a red neck roan heifer.. next year mated again to black bull, but this time maine... again produced a nearly identical red neck roan daughter...  guessing in both cases the bull was hetero for black- and contributed the red gene, while momma being a blue roan, contributed the white (or roan) gene. 

just clicked like that for 2x...

In this case, I guess my question would be-- shouldn't the calf be a smoky or white...??  and in the next generation, be able to produce that blue roan calf? 

If I were you, I wouldn't believe what's printed on the AI straw...  We got a Herf calf born one year out of Holstein semen...  no kidding, straight up herf..

 

[leanbeef]

LOL. Well what's printed on that straw is the best info I have to go on, so...

Yeah...I wouldn't have been surprised if this red heifer had been a roan. Like I said...white belly and white tail...I kinda thought she would roan out a little as she got older, but she just gets darker red! I have her bred to a black baldy Simmie now...we'll see. I would expect your calf to be just what you're saying...either smokey or white. Of course "smokey" can be anything from dark chocolate to barely silver/almost white. The thing about the diluter gene is you never know how strong it's going to show up. I don't know a LOT about Charolais genetics in particular, but aren't they just homozygous diluted reds? And in that case, the calf would have a red gene and a diluter gene from the Char parent, and either a black gene OR a white/roan gene from the blue roan parent... I think.

 

[kfacres]

LOL. Well what's printed on that straw is the best info I have to go on, so...

Yeah...I wouldn't have been surprised if this red heifer had been a roan. Like I said...white belly and white tail...I kinda thought she would roan out a little as she got older, but she just gets darker red! I have her bred to a black baldy Simmie now...we'll see. I would expect your calf to be just what you're saying...either smokey or white. Of course "smokey" can be anything from dark chocolate to barely silver/almost white. The thing about the diluter gene is you never know how strong it's going to show up. I don't know a LOT about Charolais genetics in particular, but aren't they just homozygous diluted reds? And in that case, the calf would have a red gene and a diluter gene from the Char parent, and either a black gene OR a white/roan gene from the blue roan parent... I think.

now that's a different point... If the Char white is a copy of red and char white-- and the char contributed the red gene-- and the blue roan sire contributed the white gene... the calf would be a red roan...  If the Char stuck in the red, and the sire the black... the calf would be black.

still can't think of any way to get a blue roan calf from this mating.. 

 

[Mill Iron A]

Can't tell you about a blue roan but with red angus/shorthorn cross mated to a pb char bull I have seen quite a few blonde roans.

 

[kfacres]

Can't tell you about a blue roan but with red angus/shorthorn cross mated to a pb char bull I have seen quite a few blonde roans.

logical I agree--  see my post above yours..

 

[leanbeef]

LOL. Well what's printed on that straw is the best info I have to go on, so...

Yeah...I wouldn't have been surprised if this red heifer had been a roan. Like I said...white belly and white tail...I kinda thought she would roan out a little as she got older, but she just gets darker red! I have her bred to a black baldy Simmie now...we'll see. I would expect your calf to be just what you're saying...either smokey or white. Of course "smokey" can be anything from dark chocolate to barely silver/almost white. The thing about the diluter gene is you never know how strong it's going to show up. I don't know a LOT about Charolais genetics in particular, but aren't they just homozygous diluted reds? And in that case, the calf would have a red gene and a diluter gene from the Char parent, and either a black gene OR a white/roan gene from the blue roan parent... I think.

now that's a different point... If the Char white is a copy of red and char white-- and the char contributed the red gene-- and the blue roan sire contributed the white gene... the calf would be a red roan...  If the Char stuck in the red, and the sire the black... the calf would be black.

still can't think of any way to get a blue roan calf from this mating.. 

Well, sort of...kinda. I believe the Char would be homozygous recessive for red AND homozygous dominant for dilution, which means that calf would get one gene for red and one gene for dilution. I don't think you would get a RED roan, but more likely a light yellow/blond color. And to me, the thing that makes a roan potentially cool is the contrast between the white and a dark color like black or dark red. I think a yellow or smoke colored roan would just be ugly. That's just me. And I'm not an expert on Charolais color genetics. I've raised Simmental all my life and I've studied genetics, and a lot of what I've learned is from seeing it in Simmental cattle and trying to understand how it works in different breeds. I do know that Charolais are not genetically "white" which is easy to understand if you think about what they produce when you breed em to an Angus...always a smokey. That's dilution...not white. If you breed Char to red cattle which are homozygous recessive for red, then the calf is yellow, meaning red + dilution, and they have to have two copies of a red gene to be genetically red, meaning one red gene from each parent. Therefore, Charolais would be genetically red. I think the emergence of the non-diluted red Charolais cattle kinda proves this point.

So back to your original question of the blue roan mated to a Charolais...I think you could expect either a smoke or a blonde, and it may or may not be roan. Either way, I have a blue roan cow and a Charolais is probably the LAST thing I would want to use on her just from the possible color alone!

 

[kfacres]

This is not an animal of mine, but it was a post I saw on Facebook- where some lady had mated a Blue Roan bull to a purebred Char heifer-- she's hoping for a blue roan calf...

What I called a red roan, I meant to say diluted red roan.  

I just don't see any ways possible for this particular animal to become a blue roan- since the black and roan gene, technically are the same gene, and the blue roan parent, cannot put two genes into the calf.  Then to get even simpilier- to have a blue roan, you cannot have the red gene- which the Char will inject regardless of how the dice roll...  

Going back to the original question...  From what I have not learned, the only two possible colors that can result from this mating are a diluted blonde red roan, or a smoky calf-- correct? 

Bw x rr diluted =Br (smoke) 50%  OR rw (blonde roan) 50%

 

[leanbeef]

Theoretically, yes...I think so. But then I go back to the solid red heifer my blue roan cow produced last year out of a black baldy bull...obviously the sire was heterozygous black...the cow, I thought, had a gene for black and a gene for white. She's never had a red calf before...so I dunno. Now I surmise that my cow is heterozygous black (one red gene) and somehow still blue phenotypically. I almost want to have her DNA tested just so I know! Irregardless...I don't think she should get her hopes up for a blue roan. Best case, she MIGHT get some sort of smokey roan which I think will be ugly as hell. I think it'll be either blond or just gray, though. She should prepare to be disappointed. It ain't gonna be pretty.

 

[kfacres]

Theoretically, yes...I think so. But then I go back to the solid red heifer my blue roan cow produced last year out of a black baldy bull...obviously the sire was heterozygous black...the cow, I thought, had a gene for black and a gene for white. She's never had a red calf before...so I dunno. Now I surmise that my cow is heterozygous black (one red gene) and somehow still blue phenotypically. I almost want to have her DNA tested just so I know! Irregardless...I don't think she should get her hopes up for a blue roan. Best case, she MIGHT get some sort of smokey roan which I think will be ugly as hell. I think it'll be either blond or just gray, though. She should prepare to be disappointed. It ain't gonna be pretty.

on the solid red deal.. it only takes one white hair to actually be a roan.. usually found in the crotch or tailhead.. search the body, I bet your find one...  More than likely, i bet she was a roan, super dark one...  In terms of what determines the ammount of red: white ratio.. I don't know that's ever been analyzed. 

I've seen a few longhorns over the years, and belguim blues that appear to be smoky or greay roans...  But I'm betting they didnt' have the char diluter gene...

 

[Jkallen]

Not that it really goes with this but I had a shorthorn cow bred to a black maine bull and the calf came out with red roan body and its face was half blue and half red.

 

[KSUwildcat2009]

There's many genes involved in coat color and pattern.  In this case, you'd be concerned with 3 main ones that have been published thus far. 

The red/black locus is called MC1R.  Red is recessive to black.  We'll use E for the black allele and e for the red allele.  The blue roan is EE or Ee.  The Charolais is ee.

The "roan" locus is called MGF.  This is the one that is co-dominant.  We'll use IR to represent pigmented hairs (red or black) and IW to represent non-pigmented hairs (white).  IRIW will give a mixing of red and white hairs.  The blue roan is IRIW.  The Charolais is IRIR.

The diluter locus is called SLVR.  Purebred charolais are "supposed to be" homozygous for the dominant allele.  We'll call this one D and the non color affecting allele (for lack of a better term) d.  The blue roan is dd.  The Charolais is DD.

Now, these loci all assort independently.  And we'll use Ee for the blue roan and assume that one parent was red.  SO... we have EeIRIWdd x eeIRIRDD.  1/4 of the offspring would be EeIRIWDd which would give a "smokey" roan (black, roan, diluter mutation). 

If the Charolais cow was heterozygous for the diluter gene you'd be more likely to see a true blue roan, but in this case, the calf probably is going to be a lighter smoked roan.

Pattern is a whole different story.  Like leanbeef said, it only takes one hair to be roan and sometimes it isn't seen off the bat and the range of smoke can be pretty wide.  Many have mentioned before, coat color is complex  ;D

 

[kfacres]

There's many genes involved in coat color and pattern.  In this case, you'd be concerned with 3 main ones that have been published thus far. 

The red/black locus is called MC1R.  Red is recessive to black.  We'll use E for the black allele and e for the red allele.  The blue roan is EE or Ee.  The Charolais is ee.

The "roan" locus is called MGF.  This is the one that is co-dominant.  We'll use IR to represent pigmented hairs (red or black) and IW to represent non-pigmented hairs (white).   IRIW will give a mixing of red and white hairs.  The blue roan is IRIW.  The Charolais is IRIR.

The diluter locus is called SLVR.  Purebred charolais are "supposed to be" homozygous for the dominant allele.  We'll call this one D and the non color affecting allele (for lack of a better term) d.  The blue roan is dd.  The Charolais is DD.

Now, these loci all assort independently.  And we'll use Ee for the blue roan and assume that one parent was red.  SO... we have EeIRIWdd x eeIRIRDD.  1/4 of the offspring would be EeIRIWDd which would give a "smokey" roan (black, roan, diluter mutation). 

If the Charolais cow was heterozygous for the diluter gene you'd be more likely to see a true blue roan, but in this case, the calf probably is going to be a lighter smoked roan.

Pattern is a whole different story.  Like leanbeef said, it only takes one hair to be roan and sometimes it isn't seen off the bat and the range of smoke can be pretty wide.  Many have mentioned before, coat color is complex  ;D

understandable...  scientifically the way I was thinking... for the most part.

 

[leanbeef]

That was an awesome refresher course! My genetics teacher at UT would be impressed. And I no longer feel the urge to DNA my blue roan because it's completely obvious what her genotype would be!

 

[lazy76]

I have just calved 3 full embryo sibs, donor is a double stuff/ angus mated to alias. First calf was black and white paint, second was dark blue roan, and the third was a smokey

 

[kfacres]

I have just calved 3 full embryo sibs, donor is a double stuff/ angus mated to alias. First calf was black and white paint, second was dark blue roan, and the third was a smokey

but in none of those crosses was a purebred char...  when you breed mutts to mutts, you can get any color combo.  I'm not surprised,