Could the black hided deal backfire on people?

[BTDT]

I found some very interesting things out, and I am sure they are all accurate and true since they were on google!!
1. The 4 main breeds in the US are - Angus, Herefordshire, piedmontese, and Waguyu.

Seriously? 

One look at the webpage that spit that crap out will confirm it's lack of credibility. I hope you were joking.

The information was actually printed by a beef magazine.  No I wasn't joking, but no I don't believe it.  Just trying to point out what VC said so eloquently. Just because it is on the internet, doesn't make it true.

 

[knabe]

http://www.essortment.com/scientific-research-method-39929.html

"Remember, you cannot "prove" your hypothesis. You can only fail to disprove it."

 

[DLD]

Actually, I'm kind of with AJ on this one. The Angus breed is pretty unique in that the percentage (not to mention sheer numbers) of AI sired calves registered is probably very much higher than any other breed.  There are lots and lots of Angus breeders trying to sell bulls - with very little exception, they all seem to want the pedigrees in their sale catalogs to read exactly the same.  Everyone likes to throw stones at the club calf deal for a lack of genetic diversity,  and they're not wrong,  but I think maybe that many other breeds have the same issue.  Maybe it's 25 bulls instead of 5, but spread over (at least) 10 times as many cattle, the effect is just as bad.  And it's not just one generation, it's several.  Sure there are registered Angus cattle out there that are outcross to all the current popular carrier genetics - does even the average Angus breeder know where to find them?  Or are they so indoctrinated to be scared of unknown pedigrees, will they even be willing to use them?

I do think we could see an increased demand for good red hided females.  Commercial cow/calf operators can run (for instance) Hereford females, and go buy pretty much any Angus bull they want and still raise black hided calves and not have to worry about defects.  And the ones with Angus cows can go buy a red bull and do the same.  It's not brain surgery, and it's not going to take them long to figure that out.

 

[BTDT]

Genetic diversity can either be a good thing (linebreeding) or a bad thing (inbreeding). Same with single trait selection.
Seems like with ANY livestock, success breeds success (literally). It is no different in the hog industry, sheep industry, or chicken industry. Many (most?) breeders(?) can not think for themselves and buy into the purple ribbon, therefore a single bloodline gets used and abused.

As far as the black hided phenomenon, its funny you mention the red and black cross. About 2 years ago, my "ad campaign" was exactly that: black cows + red bull = black calves.    You have no idea how many calls I received saying I was wrong because it is the bull that determines calf color. After a very brief and simple genetics lesson, I sold bulls, and lots of them to "only black" bull buyers. I admit, it was fantastic!  Maybe I should have applied for a copyright on it, as I have seen several "sale managers" use it since then. I guess some of them can't think for themselves either!!

I will also agree that I have had many calls wanting RED replacement heifer CALVES. "No thanks" on the black ones. As I mentioned a few months ago, while the black angus still have the most head of cattle, their percentage is shrinking. And probably for many different reasons.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Sorry BTDT, your sources are wrong!!
Quote: (I think your percentages are wrong AJ. So I took my own advice and used google. I found some very interesting things out, and I am sure they are all accurate and true since they were on google!!
1. The 4 main breeds in the US are - Angus, Herefordshire, piedmontese, and Waguyu.
2. CAB has the requirement that 50% of the FACE color must be black.)

CAB has the requirement that the ANIMAL must be at least 51% black.  Not the face!
In order to be labeled as Certified Angus Beef, the animal must meet either  genotype (genetics, or family tree) or phenotype (physical appearance) requirements. To meet the genotype requirements, the animal must be able to be traced to one parent that is pure-bred Angus, or two grandparents that are pure-bred Angus.

If the genotype requirements are not met, the phenotype requirements can be met instead. Those requirements are actually pretty simple – the animal needs to be at least 51% black. That’s it. Beef cattle can come in black, white, red, gray, or a couple of other colors.

After the initial eligibility screening, there is still more inspection and grading to come. Certified Angus Beef is scored in ten quality areas. First, they look for marbling and maturity. Certified Angus Beef must have:
■Modest or higher marbling (small fat deposits in the meat)
■Medium or fine marbling texture (lots of small fat deposits, instead of a few large fat deposits)
■“A” maturity – these are cattle that are harvested between 9-30 months old. Beef from younger cattle tends to be much more tender.

Next, they look for things that will bring a consistent size to each cut of beef:
■10- to 16-square-inch ribeye area
■Less than 1,000-pound carcass weight
■Less than 1-inch fat thickness on the outside of the steak

Finally, they look for things that ensure the quality and tenderness of this brand:
■Superior muscling (restricts dairy cattle genetic influence)
■Practically free of capillary ruptures (ensures visually appealing steak)
■No dark cutters (“dark cutters” are steaks that have a dark red color, instead of the normal cherry red color. This often results from stress during transport or handling, and some animals are more likely to have this than others. The lack of dark cutters ensures visually appealing steak)
■No neck hump on the animal (some breeds have a large neck hump, and these breeds tend to have less tender beef than Angus)

Less than 8% of beef in the United States makes the cut to be called Certified Angus Beef. And less than 1.5% of beef in the United States meets the quality specifications to be called Prime Certified Angus Beef.

I would have thought that at least 60 % of the cattle in the US could claim to be sired by an Angus or have two Angus grand parents so if only 8% make CAB and 1.5% Prime Certified Angus Beef why are so many people using Angus, where is the premium?

Good question. Mass marketing. Being part of the "hot" breed and the "hip" breed. You never see some rich business guy getting into the cattle deal hitting the Saler sale and dropping 500k or more to get his foundation "donor" cow.

 

[chambero]

If you raise black hided cattle in enough numbers to form truckloads you learn real quick where the premium is - there are more feedlot buyers that want them than anything else.  I dont think they are necessarily better, but they are a lot easier to sell for top prices.

 

[aj]

A uniform truckload of red angus or shorties  should sell better also. A feedlot wants to put pens together......40 head or bigger. If you think its a rip to put a pen of 5 bulls together.......try putting 40 head of shorties together.

 

[Mill Iron A]

Chambero that may be where you are at but up here pot loads of red angus are par with steers and heifers are going higher.  Of course if you really wanted the big premium it comes from using char bulls on black or red cows.

 

[rtmcc]

One thing to remember about all this genetic defect discovery is the money being made by the people developing the tests.  Why would they look for testable defects in a breed that registers less than 10,000 calves a year when they can work on a breed that registers 300,000 calves a year with many breeders with deeper pockets that will spend money to test there entire herd, if for no other reason for a marketing tool!
EVERY breed, and species has genetic defects.  They have been there forever.  We just always thought it was an odd freak of nature.  How many of you have actually seen or have first hand report of a calf affected by one of these Angus "Defects"??
But now somebody figured out how to become wealthy from it.
Thats the American way I guess. Find a way to make more money and don't worry about the possible side effects on anybody else!
  :-\

 

[Freddy]

The voice we are hearing in this area support's what MILL IRON A is saying about the Charolais ,and talked to many central feeder's after all the heat distress lost and asked about color and the answer was can't find enough CHAR X  to buy ....Surprises me with all the heat south that they are not using this advantage !!!  Also notice in South America and other foreign countries of significant heat black is not the predominant color ..... 

One of my customer's just sold on Superior and put his blacks in at 575 delivery and Charolais  at 600 and Charolais loads brought 184.00 compared to blacks 2.00 less ...
This producer has been doing this for years .....

I have to definitely disagree with RTMCC , I RAISE  Angus and have watched Angus breeders for 35 years bring these genetic defects into their cattle using HOLSTEIN etc. into their herds very discretely with no records of it ....Now they have the nerve to try to get sympathy for these act's , they didn't know the genetic defect's were in those other breed's . 

They say 60-70% abortions from this defect, and then people have the nerve to say they haven't seen these ,no they haven't maybe but think of the money it is costing people who had the bad luck of using these genetics even with recessive genes ....

 

[aj]

Free markets will sort it out. It will be interesting.

 

[Duncraggan]

One thing to remember about all this genetic defect discovery is the money being made by the people developing the tests.  Why would they look for testable defects in a breed that registers less than 10,000 calves a year when they can work on a breed that registers 300,000 calves a year with many breeders with deeper pockets that will spend money to test there entire herd, if for no other reason for a marketing tool!
EVERY breed, and species has genetic defects.  They have been there forever.  We just always thought it was an odd freak of nature.  How many of you have actually seen or have first hand report of a calf affected by one of these Angus "Defects"??
But now somebody figured out how to become wealthy from it.
Thats the American way I guess. Find a way to make more money and don't worry about the possible side effects on anybody else!
  :-\

I have been thinking this for a while myself, just never had the guts to put it on SP!

 

[aj]

You gotta be kidding me......now you are going to claim class warfare and play the EVIL capitalist card. I've seen it all now. How about....."The world will end tommoro.....children, minorities, and women, hit the hardest".

 

[vc]

You are right they do tend to develop test for areas where there is a larger percentage of the effected, no different then research done on cures and medication for diseases. If the disease is very rare, you do not find anyone really working on a cure, if it is common (Cancer) you find all kinds of research, fund raising, grants for research. To spread the cost of developing a test the number of animals to be tested needs to be large enough to make it somewhat affordable. If it cost 4 million to develop a test and we are only testing 10,000 that would work out to be about $400 per (plus test cost) if we test 300,000 it takes $13.33 plus test cost. You going to pay $427 per test? How about $40.33. It is called ROI "return on investment"

 

[knabe]

who is stopping anyone from making these tests themselves and starting their own company?

if they are making so much, they would be getting some competition.

much of the licensing revenue goes to the university.

it's not really fair to say the things about the researchers without facts. 

 

[Freddy]

Your not going to see me testing and spending more money like I have on the other 4 genetic defects and make somebody rich on somebody's mistakes and dishonesty over the years ....I can see i'm not young enough to ever outlast this deal.  Will use other clean  breed's to our knowledge  or breed around it ,that's why we have AI jug's and education to take care of our problem's with common sense . Let the  chip's fall where they will ....

 

[DLD]

You gotta be kidding me......now you are going to claim class warfare and play the EVIL capitalist card. I've seen it all now. How about....."The world will end tommoro.....children, minorities, and women, hit the hardest".

(lol)

 

[Freddy]

Knabe  ! Question time ,was told that all this research with BEEVER  is funded by the government and the beef association's have very little to say about what is being done ....

 

[justintime]

Sorry BTDT, your sources are wrong!!
Quote: (I think your percentages are wrong AJ. So I took my own advice and used google. I found some very interesting things out, and I am sure they are all accurate and true since they were on google!!
1. The 4 main breeds in the US are - Angus, Herefordshire, piedmontese, and Waguyu.
2. CAB has the requirement that 50% of the FACE color must be black.)

CAB has the requirement that the ANIMAL must be at least 51% black.  Not the face!
In order to be labeled as Certified Angus Beef, the animal must meet either  genotype (genetics, or family tree) or phenotype (physical appearance) requirements. To meet the genotype requirements, the animal must be able to be traced to one parent that is pure-bred Angus, or two grandparents that are pure-bred Angus.

If the genotype requirements are not met, the phenotype requirements can be met instead. Those requirements are actually pretty simple – the animal needs to be at least 51% black. That’s it. Beef cattle can come in black, white, red, gray, or a couple of other colors.

After the initial eligibility screening, there is still more inspection and grading to come. Certified Angus Beef is scored in ten quality areas. First, they look for marbling and maturity. Certified Angus Beef must have:
■Modest or higher marbling (small fat deposits in the meat)
■Medium or fine marbling texture (lots of small fat deposits, instead of a few large fat deposits)
■“A” maturity – these are cattle that are harvested between 9-30 months old. Beef from younger cattle tends to be much more tender.

Next, they look for things that will bring a consistent size to each cut of beef:
■10- to 16-square-inch ribeye area
■Less than 1,000-pound carcass weight
■Less than 1-inch fat thickness on the outside of the steak

Finally, they look for things that ensure the quality and tenderness of this brand:
■Superior muscling (restricts dairy cattle genetic influence)
■Practically free of capillary ruptures (ensures visually appealing steak)
■No dark cutters (“dark cutters” are steaks that have a dark red color, instead of the normal cherry red color. This often results from stress during transport or handling, and some animals are more likely to have this than others. The lack of dark cutters ensures visually appealing steak)
■No neck hump on the animal (some breeds have a large neck hump, and these breeds tend to have less tender beef than Angus)

Less than 8% of beef in the United States makes the cut to be called Certified Angus Beef. And less than 1.5% of beef in the United States meets the quality specifications to be called Prime Certified Angus Beef.

The entire CAB quality issue, has some major flaws. The main flaw I see, is in the issue of Angus in the animals parentage. I know a cattle feeder who has told me he oftentimes gets CAB for Holstien steers he feeds. For my own experience feeding cattle, I do know that Holstein's do marble very well if fed properly and it is possible to get REA of 10 square inches in some of them. Lots of Holsteins are over 51% black and I also know that these dairy types are never supposed to get accepted for CAB. This cattle feeder says there is no guarantees that he can get CAB on his Holsteins, but if they are needing more CAB feed when his cattle are harvested, his Holsteins have more chance of passing as CAB. Many Angus breeders tell me that this can not happen, but I tend to believe this reputable cattle feeder.

CAB designation is supposed to be a verification of quality to the consumer, and usually it is, but not always. Last year my wife aand I were in Billings Montana and we decided to go to a well known international steak house. As we walked into this steak house, I saw a large sign across one wall that stated " We are proud to only offer Certified Angus Beef". I commented to my wife that seeing we were in real cow country, we should have a great steak experience. When our steaks arrived, my wife looked at her steak and said that her steak looked poorer than the ones we had at home in the freezer. I told her that it probably tasted very good. When I tried to cut my steak I found it to be almost impossible to get my steak knife through it. I took the first bite and it was like having a piece of rubber in my mouth. There was absolutely no way I could eat it. I normally will never complain about food put in front of me, but when the waitress returned and asked how our meal was tasting, I politely told her that my steak was very poor quality. My wife also told her that her steak was also poor. The waitress said she was going to get the manager and when he arrived, we told him the same thing. He said that we would not be charged for our meal and he said they would prepare another steak for each of us. Then he said, I don't understand what is happening but we have had several complaints about our CAB steaks lately. I fully understand that mistakes can occur in any quality situation but it did seem strange to me , that both our steaks were  very poor quality and the manager of this establishment also told us we were not the first to complain.

In regards to the black hided issue, I feel it is one of the greatest promotional deals we have seen in the beef industry in at least the past century. I am old enough to remember when this was not the case. I remember my dad also saying he would like to have a small herd of Angus cows, but he always felt so sorry for Angus breeders when they tried to sell their bulls. The Regina Bull Sale, used to be the largest bull sale in North America and I can remember over 1500 bulls being sold at it, of which over 1000 being Polled Hereford. The Angus always had the smallest numbers and also had the lowest breed average and the most bulls passed. How this has turned around in the past 40 or so years! 

Here in Canada, black hides are slowly losing their hold on market share. Up until recently I had about 30 black cows that I had purchased mainly to breed clubbies and also to use as recips for my Shorthorn herd, so I had some balck calves every year to sell at the auction barn. Over the past 3 years, my black calves have not sold as high as my reds and roans. Two years ago, I sold a larger rancher 6 Shorthorn bulls and he insisted that they had to be roans. He lived about 400 miles from me, so I told him I would deliver 6 bulls to him and if he did not like any, I would just bring them back home. He took them all. I asked him why he insisted on roan bulls when I had several red bulls as well. He told me that he was putting these bulls on black cows and heifers, and that he wanted some indication of roan in the calves so the buyers would know that these calves were British crosses. He went on to say that black no longer meant that the cattle were British as they could be most anything. The wheels of change in this industry turn very slowly but here in Canada, we are starting to see it happen.

 

[DL]

One thing to remember about all this genetic defect discovery is the money being made by the people developing the tests.  Why would they look for testable defects in a breed that registers less than 10,000 calves a year when they can work on a breed that registers 300,000 calves a year with many breeders with deeper pockets that will spend money to test there entire herd, if for no other reason for a marketing tool!
EVERY breed, and species has genetic defects.  They have been there forever.  We just always thought it was an odd freak of nature.  How many of you have actually seen or have first hand report of a calf affected by one of these Angus "Defects"??
But now somebody figured out how to become wealthy from it.
Thats the American way I guess. Find a way to make more money and don't worry about the possible side effects on anybody else!
  :-\

I have been thinking this for a while myself, just never had the guts to put it on SP!

REALLY? What you clearly don't get is how the system works. Breeders and or veterinarians (sometime they are one and the same) identify abnormal calves that have the same or similar phenotype and see that there are similarities in pedigree. Samples are then collected and used for DNA testing to identify the causative mutation. In these cases it is important to rule out known other causes of abnormal calves so calves under go necropsy.

What you also don't get is that breeders (and I am using the term loosely here), by the choices they made (ie single trait or specific phenotype), have increased the frequency of the recessive mutation in the population to a point where someone notices that there are a bunch of abnormal calves and they all look the same - could it be genetic?

In the case of the DD mutation a veterinarian and Angus breeder in Australia noticed an increase in the number of calves with too many legs and began investigating. He was also instrumental in identifying CA and NH. Identifying mutations that cause serious abnormalities and developing ways to test for them allows people to make reasonable breeding choices for their cattle. It sure beats test breeding that was used to eliminate TH in Galloways and the SSS that was rampant in the Angus breed when McCann wrote his book about how the Herefords dealt with dwarfism.

Take a look at some of the recently identified autosomal recessive mutations in beef breeds  and the breeds involved

TH (tibial hemimelia) - Shorthorn
PHA (pulmonary hypoplasia and anasarca) - Maine Anjou
PHA (pulmonary hypoplasia and anasarca) -Dexter
Long nosed dwarf -Angus
IE (Idiopathic epilepsy) - Hereford
CA (contractural arachnodactly) - Angus, X
MA (Alpha mannosidosis) - Red Angus
DS (Digital subluxation) - Shorthorns
NH (Neuropathic hydrocephalus) - Angus
Generalized Glycogenosis - Brahman and Shotrhorn
AM (Arthrogryposis multiplex) - Angus, Red Angus. X
Chondroplastic dwarf - Dexter
OS (Osteopetrosis; marble bone) - Red Angus
Double muscling - multiple breeds

There are many still under investigation and need more samples to identify the mutations, including  - hydrocephalus and cleft palate (Shorthorn); spastic paresis (multiple breeds); proportional dwarf (Angus);