BCCC
Well-known member
What do you have to do in order to be able to export embryos? Costs involved? Can any embryologist do this?
Embryos for export?
- Thread starter BCCC
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Cowboy
Well-known member
This is a frustrating subject for many , including myself.
First off -- an embryo designated for export will have to meet ALL of importing country's health requirements for the donor -- then the embryos after collection must be washed at least 10 times (pretty much standard protocol based on AETS reccomendations any way) , they must also be rinsed in Trypsin, whish is supposed to kill any toxins that are airborn and could carry anything considered a risk for health later.
This all being said -- hereis the kicker unless it has changed lately (Which I highly doubt)
In order to prep for export -- the collection facility MUST be considered CERTIFIED by the AETS and AIETS. Certification amounts to several things, ie. making ALL 80% of all meetings sponsored by AETS, PLUS, and here is the real kicker -- in order to be certified by the AETS -- you OR the facility you work for must also be a licensed VETERINARIAN.
That paper on the wall will dicatate whether the eggs you or I collected will be exportable -- plain and simple. I kind of doubt that the embryo will ever know whether a laymen or a vet collected it's mother -- do you???
That fact alone has prevented many many thousands of eggs from GREAT genetics from leaving this country to help the overseas folks. Frustrating is a kind analogy -- I have personaly argued this very fact to no avail to the AETS -- they simply say N O
You don't want me to type what I said back -- so I'll say this, if the eggs in question were collected here -- they are superior quality right down to the lacking Trypsin and of course -- the lacking Vet Degree. Not hammering any one who is a VET , I congratulate you all -- but this rule needs changed.
So there you have it -- unless thngs have changed recently and I haven't heard if it -- this is the last I knew!
Terry
First off -- an embryo designated for export will have to meet ALL of importing country's health requirements for the donor -- then the embryos after collection must be washed at least 10 times (pretty much standard protocol based on AETS reccomendations any way) , they must also be rinsed in Trypsin, whish is supposed to kill any toxins that are airborn and could carry anything considered a risk for health later.
This all being said -- hereis the kicker unless it has changed lately (Which I highly doubt)
In order to prep for export -- the collection facility MUST be considered CERTIFIED by the AETS and AIETS. Certification amounts to several things, ie. making ALL 80% of all meetings sponsored by AETS, PLUS, and here is the real kicker -- in order to be certified by the AETS -- you OR the facility you work for must also be a licensed VETERINARIAN.
That paper on the wall will dicatate whether the eggs you or I collected will be exportable -- plain and simple. I kind of doubt that the embryo will ever know whether a laymen or a vet collected it's mother -- do you???
That fact alone has prevented many many thousands of eggs from GREAT genetics from leaving this country to help the overseas folks. Frustrating is a kind analogy -- I have personaly argued this very fact to no avail to the AETS -- they simply say N O
You don't want me to type what I said back -- so I'll say this, if the eggs in question were collected here -- they are superior quality right down to the lacking Trypsin and of course -- the lacking Vet Degree. Not hammering any one who is a VET , I congratulate you all -- but this rule needs changed.
So there you have it -- unless thngs have changed recently and I haven't heard if it -- this is the last I knew!
Terry
FutureBreeder2013
Well-known member
would sending to canada be considered exporting? im ppretty sure it s but im just checking.
justintime
Well-known member
I agree with Cowboy in that there are some really stupid rules when it comes to achieving export status on embryos, as well as most other forms of livestock genetics. We make sure all the embryos we collect are exportable, simply because our international markets are our best markets.Probably close to 90% of the embryos we sell, go to buyers outside of Canada, and by having embryos exportable, it literally has opened the world as a potential marketplace. Many of our donors have offspring in 6 countries, and there are several more countries that could open up to be potential markets very soon.
It is a little different, here in Canada, in that almost all the embryos collected are collected by veterinarians. This is probably because in the early years of ET, the vets made sure that they got rules in place that protected this as their own frontier. Somehow, they got most of the breed associations to agree to only register ET calves that had the embryo recovery documents signed by a licenced veterinarian. Since then, these rules have been relaxed somewhat, however I don't know of too many people pulling their own embryos. I think you do not have to be a veterinarian to collect and implant embryos for your own use, but I think you cannot do it for other people. I do know that in recent years, more and more producers are implanting more and more embryos for others.
There have been many studies done that have proven that trypsin washed embryos are 100% sterile, thus are 100% free of disease. International politics can oftentimes get involved, and sometimes countries put rules are put in place just to protect the breeders in that country. Three years ago, we thought we were going to lose one of our best embryo markets, Britain, as the British bureaucrats, decided that they would only accept embryos that were produced from sires that had been tested as IBR negative. There are not many bulls in Canada( or probably the US) that are IBR negative, as most breeders vaccinate their calves with IBR vaccines. Luckily for us, the British livestock breeders who wanted to have access to international genetics, lobbied hard against this ruling, and were successful to get it reversed.
The embryo washing itself, is a very simple process and it is also very low cost. Almost all our embryos are collected at one ET facility, and they wash the embryos are no cost to us. I have owned a few other donors in partnerships and we have used a couple other ET facilities, and one charged us $5 per embryo and the other charged $10 per embryo, to wash them.As far as testing the donors before they are flushed, we have never tested any of them prior to flushing. The only exception is for a while, we pulled a blood sample from the donors, when we flushed, if we thought the embryos were going to New Zealand. At the moment, the US, Britain, and Australia are fairly easy to move embryos too... but that could change in a moment's notice if some bureaucrat happens to get out of the wrong side of the bed in the morning! Earlier this spring, we had a group of embryos shipped with several other consignments of embryos, to Scotland. The tank was flown to London, cleared British customs and was then shipped by truck to Edinburgh. Some time between the time it cleared customs and before it got to Scotland, some British bureaucrat decided that the customs documents were not complete, so he declared that this tank of embryos was a potential hazard to British agriculture. The delivery driver was contacted by cell phone and was ordered to pull of the road and wait for the bureaucrats arrival. They seized the tank and immediately shipped it back to Calgary, Alberta. There was over $100,000 worth of embryos in this tank and it was sent back because someone had forgot to put an " x" in a box on one document. The papers were done again, and the tank was shipped back to Britain two days later... all for an additional cost of close to $3000 simply because an " X" was missed. Fortunately for us, the costs were picked up by the business who shipped them.
I have imported embryos from the US on two occasions, and would purchase more, however, I find it really hard to locate washed embryos in the US. Right now, I have embryos from two flushes sitting at an AI stud in the US to be shipped to Canada in a shipment of semen. This is how we ship most of our embryos, that is, we piggy back them in a shipment of semen to an AI stud in a country, as it greatly reduces the costs involved.Once they are cleared by the officials of a country, they are then shipped to where ever the buyer wishes them to be stored.. just the same as semen would be shipped.
Another of the really dumb rules is that the semen used in a flush, is supposed to be exportable to the country to which the embryos are going too. If washed embryos are disease free, what does it matter if the semen used is exportable? I have used semen that was not qualified for export, on occasion and just shown it as being US or EU ( European Union) qualified on the line that asks for semen qualifications. I have had no problems shipping internationally.
Here is another really dumb rule. If I want to use an American sire in a flush, the sire must have exportable semen to Canada. Most US breeders do not collect Canadian qualified semen as it requires the sire to be kept in stud for an extended period of time, usually between 45 - 60 days. ( It is the same thing if we want to collect US qualified semen).If the semen is not qualified to come into Canada, it is not possible to import it and breed the donor with it. It is legal, however, for a person to take your donor across the border into the US, breed her with the semen and bring her back home and then flush her a week later. I have done this on two occasions. I simply had the semen shipped to a friend who lives just across the border from me in N Dakota, I hauled the donor down the morning she was in heat, brought her home the same day, and then flushed her 7 days later, Both flushes were successful. This is now complicated by the added requirements of having to tattoo or brand any Canadian animals entering the US,but if you want to go through all the hoops, it is still possible.
I am hopeful that some of these regulations regarding certification by AETS and AIETS will some day be relaxed, however this may be just a dream. Vets are highly protective of many things they do. Here in Canada, they have even tried to regulate who can sell animal products such as worming products such as Ivomec, and many other farm products. They have not been successful in doing so, but they bring this up and try it again every few years.
It is a little different, here in Canada, in that almost all the embryos collected are collected by veterinarians. This is probably because in the early years of ET, the vets made sure that they got rules in place that protected this as their own frontier. Somehow, they got most of the breed associations to agree to only register ET calves that had the embryo recovery documents signed by a licenced veterinarian. Since then, these rules have been relaxed somewhat, however I don't know of too many people pulling their own embryos. I think you do not have to be a veterinarian to collect and implant embryos for your own use, but I think you cannot do it for other people. I do know that in recent years, more and more producers are implanting more and more embryos for others.
There have been many studies done that have proven that trypsin washed embryos are 100% sterile, thus are 100% free of disease. International politics can oftentimes get involved, and sometimes countries put rules are put in place just to protect the breeders in that country. Three years ago, we thought we were going to lose one of our best embryo markets, Britain, as the British bureaucrats, decided that they would only accept embryos that were produced from sires that had been tested as IBR negative. There are not many bulls in Canada( or probably the US) that are IBR negative, as most breeders vaccinate their calves with IBR vaccines. Luckily for us, the British livestock breeders who wanted to have access to international genetics, lobbied hard against this ruling, and were successful to get it reversed.
The embryo washing itself, is a very simple process and it is also very low cost. Almost all our embryos are collected at one ET facility, and they wash the embryos are no cost to us. I have owned a few other donors in partnerships and we have used a couple other ET facilities, and one charged us $5 per embryo and the other charged $10 per embryo, to wash them.As far as testing the donors before they are flushed, we have never tested any of them prior to flushing. The only exception is for a while, we pulled a blood sample from the donors, when we flushed, if we thought the embryos were going to New Zealand. At the moment, the US, Britain, and Australia are fairly easy to move embryos too... but that could change in a moment's notice if some bureaucrat happens to get out of the wrong side of the bed in the morning! Earlier this spring, we had a group of embryos shipped with several other consignments of embryos, to Scotland. The tank was flown to London, cleared British customs and was then shipped by truck to Edinburgh. Some time between the time it cleared customs and before it got to Scotland, some British bureaucrat decided that the customs documents were not complete, so he declared that this tank of embryos was a potential hazard to British agriculture. The delivery driver was contacted by cell phone and was ordered to pull of the road and wait for the bureaucrats arrival. They seized the tank and immediately shipped it back to Calgary, Alberta. There was over $100,000 worth of embryos in this tank and it was sent back because someone had forgot to put an " x" in a box on one document. The papers were done again, and the tank was shipped back to Britain two days later... all for an additional cost of close to $3000 simply because an " X" was missed. Fortunately for us, the costs were picked up by the business who shipped them.
I have imported embryos from the US on two occasions, and would purchase more, however, I find it really hard to locate washed embryos in the US. Right now, I have embryos from two flushes sitting at an AI stud in the US to be shipped to Canada in a shipment of semen. This is how we ship most of our embryos, that is, we piggy back them in a shipment of semen to an AI stud in a country, as it greatly reduces the costs involved.Once they are cleared by the officials of a country, they are then shipped to where ever the buyer wishes them to be stored.. just the same as semen would be shipped.
Another of the really dumb rules is that the semen used in a flush, is supposed to be exportable to the country to which the embryos are going too. If washed embryos are disease free, what does it matter if the semen used is exportable? I have used semen that was not qualified for export, on occasion and just shown it as being US or EU ( European Union) qualified on the line that asks for semen qualifications. I have had no problems shipping internationally.
Here is another really dumb rule. If I want to use an American sire in a flush, the sire must have exportable semen to Canada. Most US breeders do not collect Canadian qualified semen as it requires the sire to be kept in stud for an extended period of time, usually between 45 - 60 days. ( It is the same thing if we want to collect US qualified semen).If the semen is not qualified to come into Canada, it is not possible to import it and breed the donor with it. It is legal, however, for a person to take your donor across the border into the US, breed her with the semen and bring her back home and then flush her a week later. I have done this on two occasions. I simply had the semen shipped to a friend who lives just across the border from me in N Dakota, I hauled the donor down the morning she was in heat, brought her home the same day, and then flushed her 7 days later, Both flushes were successful. This is now complicated by the added requirements of having to tattoo or brand any Canadian animals entering the US,but if you want to go through all the hoops, it is still possible.
I am hopeful that some of these regulations regarding certification by AETS and AIETS will some day be relaxed, however this may be just a dream. Vets are highly protective of many things they do. Here in Canada, they have even tried to regulate who can sell animal products such as worming products such as Ivomec, and many other farm products. They have not been successful in doing so, but they bring this up and try it again every few years.
Cowboy
Well-known member
Thanks JIT -- VERY VERY good reply as always!
Too bad we are so far apart -- I'd love to meet up with you some day and even, for kicks, flush a cow in Canada -- just to say I did it!!!
After something over 7500 donors done so far in my career, there are still a few things I have not achieved. You can never have too many contacts in any business. I know I as an individual will never be able to turn heads as far as regulations go -- but theremost deffinately is a need for some cool minds to prevail. I have managed to go aboutmy business for lots of years and not make enemies in the wrong places, so I feel lucky.
Still, some body still needs to splash the pond if you want a wave!!!! hehehehe I just don't have a big enough paddle to make a difference!
Hope all is well in Canada -- we have more grass this year than I have ever seen since moving here -- it rains at least three times a week, have a couple pastures yet to see a single steer. Unheard of most years. Was riding yesterday thru native grass that was almost knee high to me MOUNTED -- wish I had the ability to harvest it instead of letting it go to waste, owner says no!
Take care up there -- be carefull!
Terry
Too bad we are so far apart -- I'd love to meet up with you some day and even, for kicks, flush a cow in Canada -- just to say I did it!!!
After something over 7500 donors done so far in my career, there are still a few things I have not achieved. You can never have too many contacts in any business. I know I as an individual will never be able to turn heads as far as regulations go -- but theremost deffinately is a need for some cool minds to prevail. I have managed to go aboutmy business for lots of years and not make enemies in the wrong places, so I feel lucky.
Still, some body still needs to splash the pond if you want a wave!!!! hehehehe I just don't have a big enough paddle to make a difference!
Hope all is well in Canada -- we have more grass this year than I have ever seen since moving here -- it rains at least three times a week, have a couple pastures yet to see a single steer. Unheard of most years. Was riding yesterday thru native grass that was almost knee high to me MOUNTED -- wish I had the ability to harvest it instead of letting it go to waste, owner says no!
Take care up there -- be carefull!
Terry
justintime
Well-known member
Cowboy... anytime you want to flush a cow in Canada, just pack your pajamas and head north for a little " working Holiday".The hardest part of the trip is getting ready to leave.. after that it is only a few hours, and a few pit stops.
I finally found out who has been hogging all the rain! Would you mind sharing some? We are not real dry here, but could get pretty toasty if it were to turn hot. It is much worse west of here... them poor folks won't bale a bale of hay or even get a crop now. I have been there, and I really feel for them.
I finally found out who has been hogging all the rain! Would you mind sharing some? We are not real dry here, but could get pretty toasty if it were to turn hot. It is much worse west of here... them poor folks won't bale a bale of hay or even get a crop now. I have been there, and I really feel for them.
justintime said:
I hope I am understanding this correctly.
So basically I could not flush a cow here in the U.S to a particular sire (who's semen is not exportable to Canada), and export his embryos up there as a way of offering his genetics to Canadian breeders. If so, that is unfortunate.
justintime
Well-known member
new comer said:
No, that is not correct. I maybe was not real clear in what I was saying about exporting embryos. In your case, you can use any sire you have available to you in the US, and as long as you collect the embryos and have them washed, as well as follow the other rules about who is required to collect them, you could export them to anyone in Canada as well as many other places. If you wanted to use a Canadian sire, for example, who did not have semen eligible to be exported to the US, you would not be able to use him in a flush, unless you brought the donor into Canada and bred her, then took her back to the US and flushed her. The same thing as I did with the two flushes I wanted to do to US bulls that had no semen eligible to Canada.
It is the same thing with embryos. No embryos are allowed to be exported from Canada to the US, or from the US to Canada, unless they are washed and collected by a vet who is licensed with AETS or the AIETS .... however, you could implant embryos collected by anyone and not washed in anything, into recips... and then export the pregnant recips. No one seems to care about the embryos then.... which seems to me to be another stupid rule. I know several people who have purchased embryos in the US, only to find out after they were purchased, that they could not bring them into Canada. What they did was purchase some commercial heifers, implant the embryos, then import the pregnant recips carrying the embryos.
To me, this just proves that the bureaucrats who make the dumb rules may be book smart, but they are failing big time in common sense.
I may be missing something but the rule about using exportable semen in the opposite country is valid. If you are using semen in Canada that is not exportable to there, and you have it for a flush, did you not smuggle it in? Frostie
shortyjock89
Well-known member
JIT "smuggled" it in through the cow. Legal, and awesome.
justintime
Well-known member
frostback said:
No , the only way you can use semen that is not cleared for export into Canada, is to take the donor cow to the US, breed her and then bring her back to Canada to be flushed. My point is this, why is this legal when just bringing the semen into the country is not legal? Why is it not legal to bring unwashed embryos into Canada, that could have been collected by most anyone... yet it is legal to take the same embryos, implant them into cows or heifers in the US, then import these same recips carrying the embryos in them? These kinds of rules don't make any sense to me. In some cases I am really glad there are legal ways to do things.... but it still does not make it any easier for me to understand how they think that doing one thing is wrong... but simply doing the same thing in another way.. is right.
How I became aware of this was I had sold a flush in one of our donors to a US breeder, and he wanted to use a US bull that had no semen cleared for export to Canada. I called my federal veterinarian to get some clarification of the rules, and I explained what I was trying to do. He suggested that I simply take the cow across the border, breed her in N Dakota and then bring her home the same day. He said this was legal... so that is what I did. If it is legal to do that... why is it not legal to just bring the semen in and save all the expense of testing, brokers, etc etc.
I have heard of some dairy producers who have taken donors across the border to the US, parked their trailer 100 feet from the US customs office, and had someone meet them there with semen that is not cleared for Canada. They AI breed the donor in the trailer and then turn around and come back into Canada with the cow with the illegal semen inside her, only minutes after they had crossed into the US. That is legal to do, and people are willing to do it, even with all the added expenses.
I have also heard of this happening in reverse, with Americans bringing donors into Canada, breeding them and they then take the donor back to the US. This happens more in the dairy industry than it does in the beef industry.
In regards to smuggled semen, I know there is a lot that is smuggled, but I will never do this. In my opinion, people who do this are taking exception risk as I am sure they would seize your vehicle, and probably charge them with a criminal offense. I know of many who do this, but I think they are stupid to even try it.
I cross the border in both directions many times a year. It always amazes me how lax the border officials are when you are pulling a stock trailer. 9 times out of 10, no customs officer will even look in the trailer on either side of the border ( Canadian or US) I have often thought I could have carried thousands of dollars of illegal drugs or anything else, and no one would have even known , simply because no one ever comes even close to looking in the trailer. On an occasional crossing, the customs officer will jump up on the trailer and look in the side, but this is the exception rather than the rule.
How I became aware of this was I had sold a flush in one of our donors to a US breeder, and he wanted to use a US bull that had no semen cleared for export to Canada. I called my federal veterinarian to get some clarification of the rules, and I explained what I was trying to do. He suggested that I simply take the cow across the border, breed her in N Dakota and then bring her home the same day. He said this was legal... so that is what I did. If it is legal to do that... why is it not legal to just bring the semen in and save all the expense of testing, brokers, etc etc.
[/quote]
I was not saying that I agree with the rule and I think you just nailed it. Not enough people make money when there are fewer rules. Do you have to test the cow at all when just taking a ride with her to get breed?
[/quote]
I was not saying that I agree with the rule and I think you just nailed it. Not enough people make money when there are fewer rules. Do you have to test the cow at all when just taking a ride with her to get breed?
justintime
Well-known member
I was not saying that I agree with the rule and I think you just nailed it. Not enough people make money when there are fewer rules. Do you have to test the cow at all when just taking a ride with her to get breed?frostback said:
[/quote]
You have to test the cow just as you would if she was going to stay in the US, even if she doesn't leave the trailer. The costs now would be prohibitive , in most cases now, to do this. Some breeders are still willing to go through all the hoops to get that special mating for a flush.
Here is another stupid rule.... I can hook onto my trailer any day of the week and head to the US and buy farm products, such as steel gates, panels etc, and not have any documentation done on the truck and trailer. On the other hand, if I am going to haul cattle to the US, there are several hours of paperwork involved, including an E - Manifest that you need to get from an office in Washington. You need to have EXACTLY, who is going to be driving the vehicle and EXACTLY who any passengers will be, along with complete documentation and passport information. You need the truck and trailer licence, along with numerous papers regarding the cattle. The last time I went down with an empty trailer, no one even checked the truck or trailer when I entered the US, and no one looked in the truck or trailer when I returned to Canada, even though I had purchased $2500 of livestock equipment. I could have had anything in there going either way, and no one would have known anything. Put a cow in a trailer... and the rules suddenly change completely.
cdncowboy
Well-known member
This whole export - import thing is a real mess for the most part. The rules in place to move livestock, semen, embryos are IMHO bordering on ridiculous. I still am not sure exactly who is doing the testing and paperwork, or exactly who checks it, on the mule deer and antelope from are area that make the short trip south during the winter months!! I live 25 miles north of the Border and it is well known that especially the antelope head south and back north come spring from here as well as hundreds of miles west too. What are the chances of them piggybacking disease back and forth? Yet our cattle must be subjected to a multitude of ridiculous - and sometimes pointless tests. I'm sure if vets and bureaucrats could think of a way to profit off of wild game migrating back and forth it would be done in a heart beat.
A neighbour of ours some years back sent a couple donors to SD for flushing, used a bull that was not cleared for export to Canada and as such could not import HIS embryos. That is until we were headed down to pick up a bull in the same area and hauled down---recips, that once carrying said unexportable embryos were more that welcome to come back home!?
I've got embryo's in my tank that were collected by a vet, but he is not a member of the Embryo Flushing Mafia, which as near as I can understand means that I should not even sell these embryos within Canada. Not to mention the fact that someone who has taken a preg testing or ET course south of the border will be prosecuted for attempting to profit off this training, a man in our area that did preg checking had actions taken against him for this "offense". Yes indeed a VET in Canada does indeed get two licences - Veterinary and the other to print Money!!
A neighbour of ours some years back sent a couple donors to SD for flushing, used a bull that was not cleared for export to Canada and as such could not import HIS embryos. That is until we were headed down to pick up a bull in the same area and hauled down---recips, that once carrying said unexportable embryos were more that welcome to come back home!?
I've got embryo's in my tank that were collected by a vet, but he is not a member of the Embryo Flushing Mafia, which as near as I can understand means that I should not even sell these embryos within Canada. Not to mention the fact that someone who has taken a preg testing or ET course south of the border will be prosecuted for attempting to profit off this training, a man in our area that did preg checking had actions taken against him for this "offense". Yes indeed a VET in Canada does indeed get two licences - Veterinary and the other to print Money!!
Cowboy
Well-known member
Now you can see why it is soooo frustrating for me here -- I started 28 years ago, trained myself as there was no one else to help me. I have never claimed I was the smartest ET guy around, but have seen and done more than I can remember.
Today, if I were to step on the wrong toe of any young freshly graduated Vet -- I would be turned in to the state for med-law infringement and be told to shut down. I find this to be very hard to understand and believe. I know alot of very very good vets around the country, but also, I know a few who need help tying thier own shoes. Those few are so smart that they can translate 5 languages and do Calculus in thier heads, but when it comes to simple common sense stuff -- without the book in front of them, they are completely helpless. Yet they seem to be the ones who dictate the rules of engagment for the likes of us.
It is what it is I guess, so I just try to go about every day as it comes, not cause any waves, and be friends with those that matter. I had never been sorry I declined going to Vet school all the years I have been at this, but now, I almost wish I had gone just to avoid all the issues!
Best of luck every one, I plan on doing this for a long time yet -- so smile and keep happy -- it is lots better than frowning hey???
Terry
Today, if I were to step on the wrong toe of any young freshly graduated Vet -- I would be turned in to the state for med-law infringement and be told to shut down. I find this to be very hard to understand and believe. I know alot of very very good vets around the country, but also, I know a few who need help tying thier own shoes. Those few are so smart that they can translate 5 languages and do Calculus in thier heads, but when it comes to simple common sense stuff -- without the book in front of them, they are completely helpless. Yet they seem to be the ones who dictate the rules of engagment for the likes of us.
It is what it is I guess, so I just try to go about every day as it comes, not cause any waves, and be friends with those that matter. I had never been sorry I declined going to Vet school all the years I have been at this, but now, I almost wish I had gone just to avoid all the issues!
Best of luck every one, I plan on doing this for a long time yet -- so smile and keep happy -- it is lots better than frowning hey???
Terry
knabe
Well-known member
cdncowboy said:
inefficiency is protected at all levels of economy. government is not focused on creating opportunity as much as they are increasing opportunities for revenue for themselves through creating laws to break and create fines and infrastructure to monitor compliance, enforcement etc., but of course everyone seems to break it down into a democrat/republican issue, when really it is a symptom of a process with insufficient or removed barriers to more government.
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