EPD's the good, the bad, and the ugly.

[snoit]

I have noticed a lot of people are buying cattle just on their epd's. I think this is a great tool but is only part of the selection process we should be using when buying cattle.I saw a bull today that was bought just for his epd's. I would have cut him if he was mine and hid him in the back feeder pen but because of his great numbers he will be turned out with cows. Will this tool be something that will actually hurt the cattle industry in the end? I would love to hear some opinions thanks.

 

[oldcowpoke]

I have noticed a lot of people are buying cattle just on their epd's. I think this is a great tool but is only part of the selection process we should be using when buying cattle.I saw a bull today that was bought just for his epd's. I would have cut him if he was mine and hid him in the back feeder pen but because of his great numbers he will be turned out with cows. Will this tool be something that will actually hurt the cattle industry in the end? I would love to hear some opinions thanks.

How many bulls have you seen turned out with cows based strictly on how they look?  Or for that matter win major shows, but lack sadly in regards to performance?

 

[flacowman]

generally with bulls, my buyers want to see epd's before they ever come then come look to make sure the bull looks acceptable to match his epd's.  I personally would much rather have a bull with good epd's and ok phenotype than above average phenotype and only passable epd's

 

[aj]

Some breeds accuracies are so low I don't think they are even worth looking at. I think balanced numbers are good. Average numbers. I know I am sadly mistaken. Other people like to max out all numbers especially if the the breed doesn't have stayability numbers and threw out a ceo cause he wanted to implement stayability column. It can be a game. I think bulls like mission statement that have unbelievable numbers are good an there are lots of cattle to ensure accuracy of these numbers.jmo

 

[ruhtram]

Some breeds accuracies are so low I don't think they are even worth looking at. I think balanced numbers are good. Average numbers. I know I am sadly mistaken. Other people like to max out all numbers especially if the the breed doesn't have stayability numbers and threw out a ceo cause he wanted to implement stayability column. It can be a game. I think bulls like mission statement that have unbelievable numbers are good an there are lots of cattle to ensure accuracy of these numbers.jmo

I agree! I only pay attention to certain breed epd's

 

[shortyjock89]

Some breeds accuracies are so low I don't think they are even worth looking at. I think balanced numbers are good. Average numbers. I know I am sadly mistaken. Other people like to max out all numbers especially if the the breed doesn't have stayability numbers and threw out a ceo cause he wanted to implement stayability column. It can be a game. I think bulls like mission statement that have unbelievable numbers are good an there are lots of cattle to ensure accuracy of these numbers.jmo

100% agree AJ.  In our breed, EPD's mean little most of the time.  We also raise more moderate cattle than most folks who are in love with EPD's.  Balance in everything is what I go for, whether its right or wrong.

 

[kfacres]

Some breeds accuracies are so low I don't think they are even worth looking at. I think balanced numbers are good. Average numbers. I know I am sadly mistaken. Other people like to max out all numbers especially if the the breed doesn't have stayability numbers and threw out a ceo cause he wanted to implement stayability column. It can be a game. I think bulls like mission statement that have unbelievable numbers are good an there are lots of cattle to ensure accuracy of these numbers.jmo

100% agree AJ.  In our breed, EPD's mean little most of the time.  We also raise more moderate cattle than most folks who are in love with EPD's.  Balance in everything is what I go for, whether its right or wrong.

the middle of the road is where you need to be.. the pendulum alwasys swings both ways...  stay in the middle and it will hit you 2x as much as anyone else

 

[Jacob B]

I agree with the last two on the middle of the road.  The cattle market has gone through so many extremes and I think about those that survive them the easiest are the one that stay in the middle, it doesn't take as much to adapt that way.  I try to breed them the same way, not too extreme in any one direction, no freaks.  And I also agree that I only pay much attention to epd's in certain breed, they can only give you an idea of what to expect.  I have never seen a garuntee on those things.

 

[braunranch]

EPD'S  are fine as a selection aid, but accuracy is a problem lots of the time. I've used higher epd bulls by AI and found that most of the time my closer to average natural herdsires produce just as well in our environment. And then there's the game of grouping cattle in differnet groups to make epd's lok better.
I once told a guy when they had epd's for feet and udders i'd pay more attention to them, you still can't beat seeing the bull , his sire and dam and other relatives.
Another good line you used to hear up here was " EPD'S !!!! HELL I VACCINATE FOR THEM"

 

[cbcr]

EPD'S  are fine as a selection aid, but accuracy is a problem lots of the time. I've used higher epd bulls by AI and found that most of the time my closer to average natural herdsires produce just as well in our environment. And then there's the game of grouping cattle in differnet groups to make epd's lok better.

Even though I believe in AI and have done AI for almost 37 years, EPD's are very misunderstood, even by purebred breeders.

How many beef people think that when they see an EPD it is based on both registered and commercial animals?  The one thing that many people don't know is that when you look at an EPD, that EPD is based only on purebred animals based on performance records submitted by purebred breeders.  The exception to this is the carcass EPD's and that can also include commercial animals.

But the bottom line is EPD's are only a TOOL, and should be used as such in helping in the decision of bull selection either for AI or natural service.  Other factors that have to come into play are phenotype and the pedigree ( cow family history is important too).

In the dairy industry the sire proof for a dairy bull contains BOTH registered and grade animals.

What are your thoughts of having EPD's in the beef industry based not only on registered animals but also commercial animals?  There are many commercial producers who are better breeders and managers than many seedstock producers. 

 

[AG TEACHER]

I teach an advanced animal science class to 11th and 12th graders.  This year I decided to teach it and cover topics that I had to learn in the real world... we are discussing EPDs  and in the discussion led its way to some really cool stuff.... My students came to some conclusions that are absolutely true...

1 No one really gets paid for EPDs
2 People lie about EPDs so they are inherently wrong.
3 Economically important traits are never measured so how relevant can EPDs be.
4 the only way to actually change EPDs is to increase or decrease frame size and since Frame size is not factored in to the original equation how accurate can they be.

I was vary proud of them!

 

[cowboybecoachin]

Post #1. (With another to follow)Ag teacher has some good points.

There are people who buy striclty on EPD's here in Texas. Many are wealthy individuals who own a hobby ranch (that may be huge and employ a lotta hands) and like to rub shoulders with real cattlemen and "talk cattle" like they know something. The only thing they know is that cow with the high IMF brought $9,000 at BetterThanYou Angus Ranch, with Lady GaGa providing the entertainment at the Pre-Sale Gala. And they wanna breed more with her numbers so they can get that or more from some other wealthy guy that knows papers but does not neccesarily know cattle. Especially those just getting into the business.
There are a number of smart sales managers and sales consultants that make a very good living telling wealthy folks what they wanna hear.
Now, there is nothing wrong with this, if you understand that is what often takes place. It is their money to send as they wish.
But a lotta these guys bought the ranch for a write-off, for recreation. They are NOT making money, just doing what they enjoy doing. And they can brag that their bull has .03 more RE EPD than the other guy's hobby ranch.

 

[cowboybecoachin]

EPD's, IMO, were created to 1) sell cattle 2)improve cattle. Both are noble and worthy goals.
One must remember, the numbers are only as good as the guy holding the pencil.

There is some discrimination, also. Many of the "show bred" or "efficiency bred" cattle will never have the high numbers in some areas that some highly promoted cattle have. On the other hand, many of the high-marbling or high IMF cattle just do not function well in pasture conditions, that I would call "real world". The show guys (including me) would never use over half the bulls in a given sire catalog, and the "carcass" guys would usually not use a FT. Worth champion.

It seems the folks up north of Texas have a better grasp of the practicality of raising good, functional cattle. To them, good is good, and a Denver or Louisville Champion could also work in the pasture

Balanced numbered cattle that will milk, breed back on time (high fertility), perform on grass, have sound feet and legs and travel well, along with superior muscling, depth and capacity and superior rib-shape, and will wean a HEAVY CALF, will always be in demand by REAL cattlemen.

And if they are good enough, they can win a show AND work for your buyers in real world situations.

 

[cowboybecoachin]

I will also add, the management of your bred heifers the last trimester is often as important or more so than the BW EPD of the sire.

 

[snoit]

I had the chance to talk to the rancher that bought the bull. He is in the bull business and told me had to get the epd numbers because he has alot of customers that just call on the phone ask for epd numbers and that is how they decide from who to buy their bull. It really gets you thinking as you pull not 1 calf but 3- 95+ lb out of heifers and the bull had a -1 on his bw epd. I know it is part the heifer as well but all these heifers are registered and have low bw epds as well.

 

[cowboybecoachin]

How are you feeding them the last trimester?

Our hiefers get grass and/or hay  and mineral ONLY during the last trimester. We do not wish to "feed" the growing fetus. After the calf is on the ground, we pour the feed to her because that is when she really needs it.

 

[AG TEACHER]

Feed is definitely a factor but temperature is a bigger factor than feed.  IMO A huge cold spell 0 or below at night and 10 -12 during the day 90 days out from calving and you will get BIGGER  calves  guarantee it.. The dams metabolism changes and you get calves 10lbs bigger than you ever did before.  Also who has genetics esp in their cow herd that is that predictable and consistent

I have made this statement before and I have never heard anyone else say anything similar so I will claim it as an original thought..

EPD's were created at a university. They were created by people who desperately want Animal Science to be purely a SCIENCE.  The guys that created EPD's like them because they can discuss each individual with some" intelligence"  and they can discuss animals that they have NEVER seen before and they can use numbers and to them numbers don't lie... WELL guess what ... Back in the day if you went to OSU, K State, V Tech, Blackhawk, ATI or where ever you took Animal Husbandry. I have learned over the years that whether its Science or Husbandry its about 60% ART and 40% Science.. and the 40% Science is the easy part to learn and the 60% art part is what puts money in your pocket. Academia does not like the art part because its harder to teach.... Its harder to teach someone what to look for when picking cows that flesh easy or The traits that cause a bull to go sterile or how to spot pregnant cows from the pickup truck and not hire a vet to do it. Or why are there just people that are born with the gift and others spend their whole life and never get it...

Anyway just my 2 cents

 

 

[Joe Boy]

If a cow has high EPD's for milk and year afteryear weans a 500lb calf, something is wrong.  If a cow has a low milk rating but weans a 650 lb calf every year something is wrong.  I cannot understand EPD's for milk in beef cattle when you cannot prove them.  Same is true of maternal.  In a small operation like mine.  If a cow is not maternal and does not milk, she goes to market.  Some of the lowest rated cows in my herd on milk and maternal are actually the best in practicality.  I had a heifer this year to have a premature calf that lived.  She never did come to her milk.  If she does not milk next year in the first month she will go to the sale barn.  With our 65 to 80 cow herd, they better produce because that is my EPD's.

I think weather, feed, moisture, climate, heat and cold, supplement, water, and the kind of forage that cattle have come into view on EPD's.  Therefore, I believe cattle on test are a better gage. An association cannot gage this sitting in a remote office some where by looking at the granddaddy's epds.