Fullblood Full French Pedigree Charolais

[RSC]

hopefully these cattle beat soggier cattle, not tubier cattle.

Im really pleased to have joined the forum so that I can participate in this debate. These Charolais(Im guessing are Irish) are very well muscled cattle. And they seem to be very big. I really can't see what Knabe is trying to say in his posts. Obviously the cattle are in show condition but you couldnt call them fat. I know in France they like the bigger musclier cattle. Here we like our cattle more moderate as we have to compete with the Limousins.

(welcome)

 

[knabe]

I really can't see what Knabe is trying to say in his posts.

make sure you give a negative karma point for things you can't see others are trying to say.

i'm saying the circumference and depth from withers to chest floor are lacking and that hopefully there are other cattle that excel in these traits rather than more of them that lack circumference and depth. 

if there are more that lack these traits, then i have no problem you interpreting this is a negative comment and take away as many karma points as you like.

on the other hand, maybe these cattle excel for their market.  on the other hand, if one is trying to expand their market then perhaps they should see what others want rather than impose it on them.

all i'm asking is what is the diversity in phenotype at these shows.  looking around at the breeders mentioned in the cattle both charolais and angus, they seem to lack bone, heel, depth, extension, but have muscle which would increase their yield grade if fed appropriately for their market.

 

[Mark H]

xxcc,

No major breeder has Mexican fullbloods that trace back 100% to the original cattle.  I am including line like Hoo Doo, MGM, and Grau's in this. I think you are thinking of Full French holdovers from the 1960's as their are plenty of these cattle around.  Even Buddy Cobb's herd has substantial influence from LHD, LT, and Eaton's.  The early Fullbloods and Full French lost popularity due to inferior fertility, harder calving, bad maternal traits, and less growth relative to purebreds.  The Full French are more muscled and have better dispositions but these advantages are diminishing rapidly.  
The results from progeny testing in Sweden, Denmark, and Norway have been a testament to the improvements in functionality and performance purebred Charolais have made relative to their Full French relatives.  The past is a different country we do things differently now.

 

[Mark H]

Irish,

Is that heifer a full sister to Emir?  If so then Emir is out of Jumper one of the better Full French bulls around. The few Jumper caves I have seen in North America we good calves they just had high birth weights (110 to 115 LB) that limited their marketability.  Another bull in the same boat is Icare.

 

[xxcc]

xxcc,

No major breeder has Mexican fullbloods that trace back 100% to the original cattle.  I am including line like Hoo Doo, MGM, and Grau's in this. I think you are thinking of Full French holdovers from the 1960's as their are plenty of these cattle around.  Even Buddy Cobb's herd has substantial influence from LHD, LT, and Eaton's.  The early Fullbloods and Full French lost popularity due to inferior fertility, harder calving, bad maternal traits, and less growth relative to purebreds.  The Full French are more muscled and have better dispositions but these advantages are diminishing rapidly.  
The results from progeny testing in Sweden, Denmark, and Norway have been a testament to the improvements in functionality and performance purebred Charolais have made relative to their Full French relatives.  The past is a different country we do things differently now.

cobb's cattle were my reference.  i may be mistaken, but some investigation will more than likely reveal that Cobb's genetics were foundation for DeBruckyer's and Eaton's, hence the reinfusion into their herd.

 

[xxcc]

... good calves they just had high birth weights (110 to 115 LB) that limited their marketability. 

Cunia's bw was 115, Epinal's was 121...how has that effected their marketability?

 

[Freddy]

I'm a little lost on some of the explanations, one of the biggest faults  of the French cattle were their weak pasterns on back legs in my opinion, The reason most people used them back then was the growth ,I'M talking about late sixtys an seventys ,when you say French Charolais you need to remember why we all have semen jugs, there were differences in these sires an you needed to select for those sires , some of the better structured bulls were AIGLON,AVIGNON, FACCO C09, an ALA Bramard ...Growth bulls were DESSAUNY, APOLLEN, an the Canadians definitely used some of the growth bulls ....   Some of the problems of the French cattle like birth weight an maternal  were natural problems when using bigger cattle ,I sure don't remember any purebred Charolais in that era bigger than the French ...The Litton  (SAM 951 ) cattle were some of the USA purebred cattle used back then .....  The MIECHALIS  cattle were strong Mexican bred cattle , had a ranch in old Mexico also ,Mrs Miechalis mentioned that some of the baby calves in OLD MEXICO took plane rides at a very young age .....In the state of Ne, in the 1960's -1970's 98 % of the Charolais breeders  had BRAHAMA influence in their Charolais ....This in my opinion was something that hurt the Charolais breed a lot more than the FRENCH CHAROLAIS did ....

The Buddy Cobb herd also originated from the Miechalis herd back then ....

One thing also remember in those picture ,just let  BOBBY MAY, TROY THOMAS , Matt Lautners crew  etc..... get a hold of those critters an all that hair for a week ,
do  you think that picture would look different to you then ....

 

[Mark H]

Freddy,

The cattle reintroduced into the Cobb herd from herds that were originally  sourced from them does not mean that the cattle they bought back were of their own breeding.  Buddy Cobb also swapped bulls with LT and Sparrows for example.
The Michaelis family cut a deal with Don Pochylko for some of their best bull blood cows for an interest in Aiglon.  Aiglon turned out to be a very good calving ease bull. Alger was one of the few Full French bulls easier calving.  In any event the MGM herd was not pure by any stretch of the imagination.  They are now a major source of outcross red factor genetics (MGM Merlot).
Dessauny and Ali Bramard produced some great breeding cattle like the Sir SANS F25 bull (half French).  Otherfrench  bulls that show up in pedigrees today are carnival, caid, cyrano, and Belphagor.
The old FWT 951 bull was very well promoted something like an early Wyoming Wind.  The Littons made him work and his sons were the introduction to the breed for many people.
The wild Charbray influenced purebreds...disposition problems galore.   

 

[doc-sun]

i have a couple of amps of alger semen from the 1960's

 

[rarebirdz]

This photo was  taken from the 1989 animal science class - Beef Cattle Breeds 101??

Really I cannot believe it. ... 2011 and we are promoting a bull like this? Mark and Freddy good information.

And are yours from the 1940s.
Really if you dont have anything nice to say.... why say anything?

Ironic really that she comented her cattle r more dated lol

 

[Freddy]

Mark H  -are you saying that the Charolais had no red gene in France or in the purebred Charolais ........There was an event that happened in the 1930's that had something to do with some of this .....

 

[Mark H]

Freddy,

The Full french definitely have the red factor.  In fact Aiglon was a likely suspect carrier.  A Full French son of his, Tee Anchor Aiglon, was frequently mistaken for a light red Simmental on pasture (This bull was also a good calving ease bull).  The best Full French imported were the cream colored ones.  This was found out in France when the cattle were being bought by using the arrogance of the French breeders against themselves. A few years later the French went to Canada to buy back some of the Abraham line back as virtually all were exported.
The incident you were talking about was WWII (1940-1945)  and the French sent their best cattle to the Alps to keep the Germans from eating them.  No fences or records kept so how pure could these cattle be?  Likely not any better than the domestic purebreds of the 1960's.

 

[Simmgal]

Freddy,

The Full french definitely have the red factor.  In fact Aiglon was a likely suspect carrier.  A Full French son of his, Tee Anchor Aiglon, was frequently mistaken for a light red Simmental on pasture (This bull was also a good calving ease bull).  The best Full French imported were the cream colored ones.  This was found out in France when the cattle were being bought by using the arrogance of the French breeders against themselves. A few years later the French went to Canada to buy back some of the Abraham line back as virtually all were exported.
The incident you were talking about was WWII (1940-1945)  and the French sent their best cattle to the Alps to keep the Germans from eating them.  No fences or records kept so how pure could these cattle be?  Likely not any better than the domestic purebreds of the 1960's.

That is interesting..we had a Char cow whose breeding went waaaay back to some of my granddad's old genetics. When bred to homo black bulls, her calves were a light orange, and so were her grandcalves. I doubt that she was purebred though. I just find it interesting that her calves had an orange tint. Maybe its just coincidence, but still cool. Haha!

 

[Freddy]

Mark H- yOUR comment about the Meichalis herd not being pure ,they started making those red factor cattle if my memory is correct in the 30's an keep complete records an I know the ones my family bought were recorded with the AICA in the early 60's ,an them an the Charbray have been legalized over the years ...They might have longer proof of their parentage then most of the breeds of to day ....Some have proof like you said of some of the domestic breeds but it has as many
reliability as a puff of wind ...

 

[irishshorthorns]

Irish,

Is that heifer a full sister to Emir?  If so then Emir is out of Jumper one of the better Full French bulls around. The few Jumper caves I have seen in North America we good calves they just had high birth weights (110 to 115 LB) that limited their marketability.  Another bull in the same boat is Icare.

Hi. No, Emir is by a stock bull called Cavelands Tower. Tower was imported from France as an embryo. He is sired by a bull called Nathan, and out of a cow called Image.  Tower got injured as a young bull and was going to be slaughtered, but one of my customers spotted him and saved him. He really was in a bad way, but they nursed him back to a stage where he could hand mate cows. We have some very exciting calves by Tower that are around 9 months old now. Some of them will be shown later in the season. We're very excited about their prospects. If you go to www.icbf.com and type in Luddenmore Emir in their bull search facility and all the pedigree and performance data should come up. I was trying to attach the direct link but it wouldn't work for some reason.

 

[JY]

Have enjoyed you guys discussion on the french cattle and the domestic charolais. The herd not mentioned that had the Mexican fullbloods that made a large influence in the charolais breed was Yates Ranch. If my memory serves me right, their mexican fullbloods came out the first importation into Mexico from France. That set did not seem to carry the genetic problems that the latter ones did. Was around when the french cattle were being used. There were some good ones, like Freddy mentioned but there were sure alot that caused the Charolais beed to gain a bad rep for calving.

 

[Freddy]

ONe thing popped into my mind when we are critizing some of the French Charolais for calving trouble, but there was a choice to use easier calving sires ,but who is responsible for the people who wanted more growth , take the risk ,then proably downplay the calving problems an sell them to someone else to stay in business ....
The French people have been using these type sires for years but in a different enviroment , different wants an needs from the cattle ,lets quit blaming the cattle for our greed an decisions ,were a pretty educated country so we should be responsible for the decisions we make an in most instances with warning signs available ...

 

[Mark H]

Irish,

I looked at the ICBF website and saw Emir's Eurostar ratings and his pedigree.  Emir to me is a bull designed to turn out calves out of other breed  or crossbred suckler herds as is the demand in the UK and Ireland.  I want to know more about the Eurostar system and how this relate to UK EBVs and French progeny test results.  I need a better grasp on what this bull excels at beyond a star system.  
The biggest problem, going by Eurostar ratings will be his maternal ratings.  In North America Charolais breeders require maternal excellence in all the bulls they use-even their growth and muscle bulls.  I know of great bulls that did not get great market acceptance here just because they had a negative milk EPD.  The cow must also have great fertility (no misses- a calf every year and breed on time), and all around good confirmation.  This has been taken to the point where testing on the most used AI bulls among the major breeds at MARC showed the Charolais had better maternal traits than all other breeds in the test.  Producer are now keeping Charolais cross heifers as replacements.  The cost?  Less muscle and bone so carcass yield suffers.  If you can improve these traits with out causing calving and fertility issues you may have a place for him.
If I was promoting a Charolais bull from Europe I would ask the major breeders such as Brent Thiel (LT Ranches), Cam Sparrow, Dory Gerrard, Dennis Serhienko (Voegli Bros.), San Dan Farms, Hanson Farms (active on this site), Broken Box ranch, and Bar J Charolais farm what they are looking for and whether they would use your bull.  A good resource to do your market research is : http://www.charolaisbanner.com/breeders.php
By the way calving ease is vital.  When you are calving a couple hundred cows by yourself and your family and the vet is many miles away calving problems can be a major disaster. That is why the Conception to Consumer program was started in the 1960's to get rid of the bulls that did not fit into North American production systems.  Their is no going back to the hard calving bulls of the original imports.  Multi trait selection and listening to their bull customers has paid off well for Canadian Charolais breeders; look at their relative position in the market place to relative to the Shorthorn, now a bit player in the commercial bull business in North America.
Your education on how the commercial and purebred  bull market works in North America  is about to begin...

 

[JY]

Yes the French breeders raised their Charolais in complete different environment and calving ease was not a prioty, muscle was. But if anyone attended any othe Full French Sales in the US in the 70's, like Nelson Bunker Hunt's sales or the other numerous ones mainly in Texas you realized that the folks buying and selling them were not cattlemen. They were trying to invest and trading cattle. Many  of them were never sent to a new home they just went to the next sale. Lets say they were gentleman ranchers. But still the domestic cattle needed the extra bone, muscle and quality that was very evident in the good half French cattle. The real cattle breeders like Michaelis, Baumans. etc. utilized the french blood to make better Charolais because the cattle bred up from Brahman, angus and hereford needed the outcross of full french blood. Just did need not the problems that came with the ones that were sold and used by people that did not know or care about a commercial bullmarket.

 

[irishshorthorns]

Irish,

I looked at the ICBF website and saw Emir's Eurostar ratings and his pedigree.  Emir to me is a bull designed to turn out calves out of other breed  or crossbred suckler herds as is the demand in the UK and Ireland.  I want to know more about the Eurostar system and how this relate to UK EBVs and French progeny test results.  I need a better grasp on what this bull excels at beyond a star system.  
The biggest problem, going by Eurostar ratings will be his maternal ratings.  In North America Charolais breeders require maternal excellence in all the bulls they use-even their growth and muscle bulls.  I know of great bulls that did not get great market acceptance here just because they had a negative milk EPD.  The cow must also have great fertility (no misses- a calf every year and breed on time), and all around good confirmation.  This has been taken to the point where testing on the most used AI bulls among the major breeds at MARC showed the Charolais had better maternal traits than all other breeds in the test.  Producer are now keeping Charolais cross heifers as replacements.  The cost?  Less muscle and bone so carcass yield suffers.  If you can improve these traits with out causing calving and fertility issues you may have a place for him.
If I was promoting a Charolais bull from Europe I would ask the major breeders such as Brent Thiel (LT Ranches), Cam Sparrow, Dory Gerrard, Dennis Serhienko (Voegli Bros.), San Dan Farms, Hanson Farms (active on this site), Broken Box ranch, and Bar J Charolais farm what they are looking for and whether they would use your bull.  A good resource to do your market research is : http://www.charolaisbanner.com/breeders.php
By the way calving ease is vital.  When you are calving a couple hundred cows by yourself and your family and the vet is many miles away calving problems can be a major disaster. That is why the Conception to Consumer program was started in the 1960's to get rid of the bulls that did not fit into North American production systems.  Their is no going back to the hard calving bulls of the original imports.  Multi trait selection and listening to their bull customers has paid off well for Canadian Charolais breeders; look at their relative position in the market place to relative to the Shorthorn, now a bit player in the commercial bull business in North America.
Your education on how the commercial and purebred  bull market works in North America  is about to begin...

Hi. I disagree that Emir is destined to become a bull for the crossbreeding sector. If you look at his EBV star ratings you will see that he is in the top one percent of the breed for all growth and carcase traits, whilst also having a three star rating for daughter fertility and milk. I think he really is an all round pedigree sire. His projected calving difficulty figure is 7.3%. This is just above breed average by 1% for full French bulls in Europe. I fully understand the system of calving and rearing calves in ranch type conditions in North America. Cows must calve with minimal assistance, have adequate milk and re-breed again quickly to avoid being culled, as should be the case. Our Angus and Shorthorn cows calve unassisted outside and have to perform well to avoid getting culled. Last year we sent a fantastic looking and breeding Red Angus heifer off in our cull because she failed to hold to A.I. after three services. We could have run her on but why? The world is full of cattle, and if you can breed one good one you should be able to replicate her easily if you have the cows to do it. The Charolais breed in Europe however is a different kettle of fish. Predominantly they are bred for one thing and one thing only and that is to be a terminal sire for use over maternal type breeds like the Simmental etc.  Farmers over here using a Charolais bull are and must be prepared for 20% assisted calvings at a minimun, big lazy calves that have to be assisted to suckle, and a high cull cow rate because their cows won't re-breed.I personally don't agree with it but unfortunately you have to breed what the markets desire. Emir was sold to Scotland for a high five figure price, and we already have sold  twice his sale price in advanced semen orders. As a business we have to go with the money. I'm currently trying to source some polled fullblood Charolais semen, with both good maternal and terminal traits that is eligible for import to the E.U. It's a tall order I know, but if you have any suggestions I would appreciate them. If I'm honest I don't really like Charolais cattle. I appreciate them for what they are and what they do, but I don't love them. My breeds are Angus, (both Red and Black)) and Shorthorns. I don't run anything else on my farms except these two breeds. French Charolais are majorly labour intensive and require lots of work. The break even sale price for one of our Charolais is 2,000 Euro. The equivalent for my Angus and Shorthorn is about 900 Euro. The Charolais do however make the most money because the commercial farmers over here will pay very good prices for a good Charolais bull. We won't be expanding our Charolais numbers for labour reasons but they won't be going anywhere soon!