Go ARIZONA - Defend yourself!!

[knabe]

if people don't learn a work ethic by age 6, it's harder and harder to get one after that.

the gift of work is the hardest to give.

 

[JbarL]

if people don't learn a work ethic by age 6, it's harder and harder to get one after that.

the gift of work is the hardest to give.

last time we called on the "gift of labor" as a nation was ...probally 1942...idled plants that had sit 10 yrs through the depression were fired back up for the war, and with no time to  waste...and with all the youing men were gone to warto fight and die ??.... basically women/kids/engineers and others not so experienced...got steel plants/automobile factories/ tire manufacturing facalities ( .. re tooled and producing massive amounts of war tools at amazing rates.....
littler known fact....as manycitizens died in the plants and docks the first year in accidents and mishaps in the states with the inexperienced help and the manpower type of industrial technology we had then...as did in pearl harbor...still for the cause....and still all hands on deck as a nation....thats the greatest gift of work ever forgotton.... <>..jbarl

 

[aj]

Only a liberal could find a way to blast the military in this thread. ;D

 

[JbarL]

Only a liberal could find a way to blast the military in this thread. ;D

aj...i think you need another cup of coffee this morning and maybe find your glasses and read it again.... ...jbarl

 

[aj]

I stand corrected.

 

[OH Breeder]

The area I grew up in had lots of big vegetable farms. ONce a year the chicken coops that housed broilers were converted to living quarters and migrate schools were set up. The farmers trucked tons of Mexican workers in to plant and then harvest fields. How many Americans would live in a converted chicken house and work for pennies on the dollar. That is what is sad. WE created this problem. The folks in mexico live on pennies a day. They come here and $5/hr sounds like a gold mine. This has been going on a long time. It wasnt  Clinton, Bush or Obama that created this situation.

 

[Telos]

The area I grew up in had lots of big vegetable farms. ONce a year the chicken coops that housed broilers were converted to living quarters and migrate schools were set up. The farmers trucked tons of Mexican workers in to plant and then harvest fields. How many Americans would live in a converted chicken house and work for pennies on the dollar. That is what is sad. WE created this problem. The folks in mexico live on pennies a day. They come here and $5/hr sounds like a gold mine. This has been going on a long time. It wasnt  Clinton, Bush or Obama that created this situation.

My two co-workers  are illegally here and I get caught up in the rights and wrongs of this issue. These people came here in desperation and I account for that. I do think many are exploited and that is a criminal act in itself. We probably need to be realistic in how this should play out. There is no way this country is going to ever send them back...unless you want to pay twice as much for your next dinner.

 

[JbarL]

The area I grew up in had lots of big vegetable farms. ONce a year the chicken coops that housed broilers were converted to living quarters and migrate schools were set up. The farmers trucked tons of Mexican workers in to plant and then harvest fields. How many Americans would live in a converted chicken house and work for pennies on the dollar. That is what is sad. WE created this problem. The folks in mexico live on pennies a day. They come here and $5/hr sounds like a gold mine. This has been going on a long time. It wasnt  Clinton, Bush or Obama that created this situation.

There is no way this country is going to ever send them back...unless you want to pay twice as much for you next dinner.

thats exactually what the slave owners in the south at the times  argument was for the price of cotton and food  as well.......and the high price amercians would pay for goods if they didnt have there slave labor to provide it....didnt hold water then...dont hold water now...jbarl

 

[knabe]

i can't remember if it was thomas friedman that said this or not when visiting china years ago visiting a canal project and the chinese said they were providing jobs by digging the project with shovels instead of mechanization.

friedman said something to the extent of, oh, i thought you wanted to build a canal, if you want to provide jobs, why don't you give them spoons instead.

 

[flacowman]

JbarL

I cannot let this misstatement pass.  There were more slaves in the north than in the south and a much higher percentage of the white population had slaves...In the south it was less then 1% of white people who owned slaves and in Pennsylvania it is estimated that almost 15% of the white population owned at least one slave. thats exactually what the slave owners in the south at the times  argument was for the price of cotton and food  as well.......and the high price amercians would pay for goods if they didnt have there slave labor to provide it....didnt hold water then...dont hold water now...jbarl
[/quote]


That arguement didn't hold water because ity wasn't made...there was not enough money or labor to end slavery all at once...they needed time, time which the government wasn't willing to give them.  And I just want to make it clear that the war wasn't over slavery at all.
By the way, the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the south behind union lines...slavery endured in the north even after the last southern slave was freed.

 

[Show Heifer]

If you study the slave issue, the pro-slave people  literally clung to the HOPE that once slavery was abolished the food and labor prices would sky rocket and things would literally fall apart (no factories running, no harvest being done, no tobacco being harvested). But I guess that didn't happen did it?  And I am willing to bet there were several disappointed slave owners when it didn't happen.

Telos, if you are knowingly working side by side illegals, isn't that a type of "aiding and abedding" a fugitive?  What gives them the right to break the law "in the name of improving their own lives"?  I mean, if I robbed a bank and stole 20 million dollars, I could do a lot of "improving my live" to, but I am willing to bet you would think that is wrong.  I have a person or two that if they were gone would improve my life a great deal, but I am willing to bet again that if I "had them removed" so that my life could be better, you would think that is wrong and I should be held accountable in both instances to the fullest extent of the law. Correct?  
Exactly the same "theory".

 

[JbarL]

JbarL

I cannot let this misstatement pass.  There were more slaves in the north than in the south and a much higher percentage of the white population had slaves...In the south it was less then 1% of white people who owned slaves and in Pennsylvania it is estimated that almost 15% of the white population owned at least one slave. thats exactually what the slave owners in the south at the times  argument was for the price of cotton and food  as well.......and the high price amercians would pay for goods if they didnt have there slave labor to provide it....didnt hold water then...dont hold water now...jbarl

That arguement didn't hold water because ity wasn't made...there was not enough money or labor to end slavery all at once...they needed time, time which the government wasn't willing to give them.  And I just want to make it clear that the war wasn't over slavery at all.
By the way, the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the south behind union lines...slavery endured in the north even after the last southern slave was freed.
[/quote]
flcowman...your facts are correct.....i quess i was using a bit of a wid brush to make my point....my reference to the south was more directed at the cotton production of the south ....and its dirrect economic quandry the nation seemed to find itself in at the time over its value based on labor costs........just as we seem to have ourselves in a bit of quandry now over labor costs and our ability to feed ourselves...........jbarl

 

[flacowman]

That's because we as a society have become too high and mighty for manual labor...americans nowadays are unwilling to work that hard for our money.

 

[garybob]

JbarL

I cannot let this misstatement pass.  There were more slaves in the north than in the south and a much higher percentage of the white population had slaves...In the south it was less then 1% of white people who owned slaves and in Pennsylvania it is estimated that almost 15% of the white population owned at least one slave. thats exactually what the slave owners in the south at the times  argument was for the price of cotton and food  as well.......and the high price amercians would pay for goods if they didnt have there slave labor to provide it....didnt hold water then...dont hold water now...jbarl

That arguement didn't hold water because ity wasn't made...there was not enough money or labor to end slavery all at once...they needed time, time which the government wasn't willing to give them.  And I just want to make it clear that the war wasn't over slavery at all.
By the way, the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the south behind union lines...slavery endured in the north even after the last southern slave was freed.
[/quote]





Yes, it was. Read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair.

 

[Telos]

If you study the slave issue, the pro-slave people  literally clung to the HOPE that once slavery was abolished the food and labor prices would sky rocket and things would literally fall apart (no factories running, no harvest being done, no tobacco being harvested). But I guess that didn't happen did it?  And I am willing to bet there were several disappointed slave owners when it didn't happen.

Telos, if you are knowingly working side by side illegals, isn't that a type of "aiding and abedding" a fugitive?  What gives them the right to break the law "in the name of improving their own lives"?  I mean, if I robbed a bank and stole 20 million dollars, I could do a lot of "improving my live" to, but I am willing to bet you would think that is wrong.  I have a person or two that if they were gone would improve my life a great deal, but I am willing to bet again that if I "had them removed" so that my life could be better, you would think that is wrong and I should be held accountable in both instances to the fullest extent of the law. Correct?  
Exactly the same "theory".

I could not afford to operate a restaurant without these people. It's alot like the beef industry. If Joe down the road is hiring illegals and giving hormones to his feedlot cattle then everyone must do it to be competitive. Same with my business. I need people that are willing to work very hard for little money. I support these people who work hard  and are loyal..

Now, if everyone did the same thing and did not hire illegals then that is a different story. But that's  not the case. Freeing black slaves and sending illegals back home are completely two different dynamics.


 

I            

 

[Telos]

Even though it has slowed down, we are  still making it accessable for illegals to come across the border and our wonderful country has allowed them this in the first place. Stopping new comers at the border is a great idea but sending the ones that are already here is unrealistic. I don't think it will ever happen.

 

[Telos]

Show Heifer - Robbing a bank and stealing peoples' money is not a very good analogy of people working their butts off and earning their money.

Maybe you need to come work just a day for me. Maybe then you'll know. I'll pay you minimum wage. Oh by the way are you skilled in making romesco sauce, multitudes of vinegrettes, chiffanodes of fresh herbs and much more in just an hours for over 75 people?  

These people are willing to work. They had the courage to come hear for a better life. Just like my grand parents who just needed to sign some papers.

I have no problem with stopping them at the border. I don't buy into the excuse that this is impossible.

 

[JbarL]

Even though it has slowed down, we are  still making it accessable for illegals to come across the border and our wonderful country has allowed them this in the first place. Stopping new comers at the border is a great idea but sending the ones that are already here is unrealistic. I don't think it will ever happen.

telos...i respect your realism and the compassion you share...stopping new comers at the border is a bit more than "a great idea"....its reality now for arizona...they are the ones who've drawn the line in the sand...
i just ask that you try to understand the rust belts feelings about jobs and now the 2nd generation of no jobs where once they flourished...detroit/cleveland/akron/muncie/indiana/illionis/iowa..they have never recovered from the industrial pull out that some thought was"unrealistic" at the time as well..
..this arizonia bill has nothing at all in it about massive deportation of illegals....this is about a states right to police its own state and apply federal law...the realistic optimism would be that most of the worst of the illegals would now be held when caought for violating the law anyway/ isolated and dealt with as arizonia has plans for and maybe it will work ?..
how do you eat an elephant??...one bit at a time......  ....jbarl

 

[Show Heifer]

Telos, I am disappointed in your reply. You didn't answer my question, and if you are "head chef" then you are actually doing the hiring??? Sticky wicket indeed.  Plus every single one of them will say "we had to come here to improve our lives" or "our life was so aweful in (pick a country)" or any version of such, so me robbing a bank (breaking the law) really isn't a stretch.... no one got killed. My life got improved, even if it was at a price of someone else. How is that any different? The law in the law, and breaking it  is breaking it.

I also apologize for who I know. I know of the illegals up here that spray graffetti all over private property, get in gang fights in what was once good neighborhoods, carry no car insurance, transfer drugs in a local park so it is now unusable etc, etc, etc. Yes, It is not JUST illegals, but it is 8 to 1. 

Our country has a system for allowing people to come to this country LEGALLY. That is the law. Many of thousands of people do it every single year. It can be done.  SO THAT IS WHAT SHOULD BE DONE. 

If your employees are "so hard working" why can they not make it in their home country at a tourist trap?

 

[knabe]

this thread is talking about how equilibrium is achieved.

managed markets can not create equilibrium and only inflate the value.

the key, is how you encourage investment.  without it, you need more and more to make less and less.