I have not seen any comments lately regarding Grandmaster, the Simmental, or reports of the quality of the calves - I did note that in the "Dream Matings" thread that he was mentioned several times which I thought was very interesting - we have some but they are at the stage that I am not sure what to think, but I still like them compared to other sires and are using him again - what kind of results are others having and what are plans to perhaps use him again? As always photos and comments are appreciated.
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Grandmaster
- Thread starter Sammy
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CAB
Well-known member
The only thing that I have been hearing within the SM circles is that PPL are questioning his #s.
CAB said:The only thing that I have been hearing within the SM circles is that PPL are questioning his #s.
Specifically the growth numbers. What I have heard on CE, BW has been pretty solid.
You will notice on the model the Simmentals use to determine EPD's ties low birth weight bulls with lower MCE scores before even getting any data on the animal. Now I will admit that research done while I was in college certainly seemed to bear that out. HOWEVER, the problem with the Simmental EPD's is that they BEGIN with such low numbers from correlations that a bull would have to be used for 20 years to reverse the effect that the low beginning number would have. Same with milk. If the yearling weight is high the milk is low and it would take 15 years of ACCURATE reporting of daughters who milked like Holsteins to bring it to be accurate. Not gonna happen.
Another thing about Simmental EPD's is that EPD's for old bulls have incredibly low growth numbers. I'm talking about the old spotted 10 frame bulls of the late 80's. Yet we routinely weaned calves over 800 lbs at 205 days, had one 1075 actual at 205. So that let's me know the model is certainly flawed. Ad that to the fact that the THE program is so complicated that the majority of people who report it do so haphazardly at best, makes for a very totally flawed system. Ad to that they spent who knows how much money to determine that if I use the number 1 REA bull in the breed I should get less than half additional square inch of REA in my calves instead of using my neighbors bull. Thanks for the info.
In general I'd say that daughters of calving ease bulls tend to have more calving difficulty than high growth bulls. The more you stack calving ease sires the more difficulty those heifers you keep will have. It's like spiral going down the toilet. Its one reason that many don't keep any heifers out of first calf heifers.
Another thing about Simmental EPD's is that EPD's for old bulls have incredibly low growth numbers. I'm talking about the old spotted 10 frame bulls of the late 80's. Yet we routinely weaned calves over 800 lbs at 205 days, had one 1075 actual at 205. So that let's me know the model is certainly flawed. Ad that to the fact that the THE program is so complicated that the majority of people who report it do so haphazardly at best, makes for a very totally flawed system. Ad to that they spent who knows how much money to determine that if I use the number 1 REA bull in the breed I should get less than half additional square inch of REA in my calves instead of using my neighbors bull. Thanks for the info.
In general I'd say that daughters of calving ease bulls tend to have more calving difficulty than high growth bulls. The more you stack calving ease sires the more difficulty those heifers you keep will have. It's like spiral going down the toilet. Its one reason that many don't keep any heifers out of first calf heifers.
I've been hearing great things about the Grandmaster calves... hoping its all true as we should have some next spring.
Gonewest - I agree that the EPD's are skewed on this breed. It doesn't make sense given the scenarios you described on the old bulls - which are very realistic too. One thing that bothers me is that the individual data on a calf doesn't seem to weigh in very heavily on his EPDs.. For example the numbers on a calf that is the result of a cow with a low BW, high CE mated to a low BW, high CE bull will always be low BW, high CE even if the calf was a 130 hard pull/c-section monster. That calf should not be a 9 or higher CE yet he is..
Gonewest - I agree that the EPD's are skewed on this breed. It doesn't make sense given the scenarios you described on the old bulls - which are very realistic too. One thing that bothers me is that the individual data on a calf doesn't seem to weigh in very heavily on his EPDs.. For example the numbers on a calf that is the result of a cow with a low BW, high CE mated to a low BW, high CE bull will always be low BW, high CE even if the calf was a 130 hard pull/c-section monster. That calf should not be a 9 or higher CE yet he is..
Interesting explanation on the Simmental epds answering several things that I have noticed, thanks for that - on Grandmaster birthweights - most we had were small to moderate but there were a few larger ones, low 90s, too and I would not totally equate him to be a calving ease bull to replace the low bw Angus in a breeding program - certainly the cows had some BW in them too
Another question is, what is considered a "power Simmental bull" as mentioned above Joker was not - I have been looking for several years for one of those - please tell me what and where they are? Not kidding or trying to be smart about it as I have looked at Denver and most everywhere else and love the females but am disappointed with the bulls. Not that impressed when you get behind them. I want one that is pretty from the side, sound and stout. Do they exist? I have seen most of the ones that are the hot ones like Steel Force, etc.
Another question is, what is considered a "power Simmental bull" as mentioned above Joker was not - I have been looking for several years for one of those - please tell me what and where they are? Not kidding or trying to be smart about it as I have looked at Denver and most everywhere else and love the females but am disappointed with the bulls. Not that impressed when you get behind them. I want one that is pretty from the side, sound and stout. Do they exist? I have seen most of the ones that are the hot ones like Steel Force, etc.
kanshow - plenty of bone, lot more than you would expect and lots of body like the photos of the sire - I suppose that I don't get too excited over "numbers" although they are a plus and the calves do seem to have very good grow, but then, duh, I guess that if you have body and bone they should grow and I am happy with that - ranged from low 60s to low 90s with only 3 over 85 - good vigor and no negatives from me on the bull - bull calves are nice, some very nice, but the heifers are A+ - calves are consistent, sound, smooth jointed and good in their lines - if the cow milks worth a crap you are fine as no junk calves -
1/2 of our Simmental herd was bred to Grandmaster. I would question the accuracy of his EPDs. Our birth weights ranged from 70 to 115 lbs. We bred to some heifers feeling that his EPDs suggested that he would be safe to use. We spent many nights watching the heifers. I am not planning to bred anymore heifers or small cows to Grandmaster. The calves expressed more bone, width of shoulder, and square shape of head which caused some calving difficulties - some required to be pulled. I would also question the structural correctness of the bull, many of our calves are bold and straight shouldered. In general, the Grandmaster are nice calves, but we have other sires that are out growing them.
Have you looked at the rear view of Grandmaster? He is thick. So is the bull they call Fat ButtSammmy said:Another question is, what is considered a "power Simmental bull" as mentioned above Joker was not - I have been looking for several years for one of those - please tell me what and where they are? Not kidding or trying to be smart about it as I have looked at Denver and most everywhere else and love the females but am disappointed with the bulls. Not that impressed when you get behind them. I want one that is pretty from the side, sound and stout. Do they exist? I have seen most of the ones that are the hot ones like Steel Force, etc.
