Having problems with flushing a cow and need advice.

[shortii]

I have a cow that I had flushed to a bull that is now dead. The first flush the embryologist had screwed up and killed all of the eggs. They did a second flush for free and the cow flushed a lot of eggs but they weren't viable. I talked to some friends and they said they should have waited 60 days to redo the flush. The embryologist did the second flush in about 30 days. Would that have affected the quality of the eggs on the second flush?

 

[HomeRaised]

I have a shorthorn cow that I tried to flush twice and she got 1 grade 1 and 1 grade 2 on the first flush with 6 more non-viable. The second flush we reduced the drugs thinking we overstimulated her and got nothing. She is now in the process of IVF. Last week we pulled 4 grade 1, 2 grade 1 and 1 grade 3 for fertilization.

My embryologist said that if they dont flush well, IVF is the way to go. Some cows dont respond well to conventional flushes.

 

[Bradenh]

I agree with home raised also sounds like a new embryologist may solve the issues in the original post

 

[WSC2010]

We just flushed our Shorthorn donor. 15 eggs. 7 fertilized number 1 and 2. 28 days later 16 eggs. 5 fertilized number 1 and 2. Very good semen quality. Starting her in IVF which I would do with yours to

 

[mbigelow]

There are a lot of variables when flushing. The cow begins to start follicular recruitment 60 prior to ovulation so days post partum and nutrition play a huge role. When had the cow last calved? Was she on a increasing plane of nutrition and good mineral plan?  Was the semen checked? Who did the shots and was the increased/decreased/left the same from first flush?  How many straws of semen were used?  Was there a cold storm during the breeding or shortly after?

 

[HomeRaised]

We just flushed our Shorthorn donor. 15 eggs. 7 fertilized number 1 and 2. 28 days later 16 eggs. 5 fertilized number 1 and 2. Very good semen quality. Starting her in IVF which I would do with yours to

Did you tweak your protocol from the first to second flush? There is a chance you slightly over stimulated her to only get half the eggs as #1. I have been told that if you are getting the eggs but the quality isnt what you'd expect, that you may have stressed her or overstimulated her. Dialing back the drugs a little can have a huge impact on egg quality. Also, how fast you decrease your dosage during the setup can have an impact too. I had one person tell me not to decrease more than 0.3ml, but most protocols you see are decreasing by 0.5ml.

 

[Lewis_Family_Cattle]

We just flushed our Shorthorn donor. 15 eggs. 7 fertilized number 1 and 2. 28 days later 16 eggs. 5 fertilized number 1 and 2. Very good semen quality. Starting her in IVF which I would do with yours to

Did you tweak your protocol from the first to second flush? There is a chance you slightly over stimulated her to only get half the eggs as #1. I have been told that if you are getting the eggs but the quality isnt what you'd expect, that you may have stressed her or overstimulated her. Dialing back the drugs a little can have a huge impact on egg quality. Also, how fast you decrease your dosage during the setup can have an impact too. I had one person tell me not to decrease more than 0.3ml, but most protocols you see are decreasing by 0.5ml.

Rec'd, I'd have dialed this one down a bit the second time to shoot for 10/12 or so.  Also, unless your bombing on flushes I'd be hesitant to IVF.  You'll pay twice as much to get half the pregnancy rates on IVF.

 

[Lewis_Family_Cattle]

I have a cow that I had flushed to a bull that is now dead. The first flush the embryologist had screwed up and killed all of the eggs. They did a second flush for free and the cow flushed a lot of eggs but they weren't viable. I talked to some friends and they said they should have waited 60 days to redo the flush. The embryologist did the second flush in about 30 days. Would that have affected the quality of the eggs on the second flush?

We usually wait 45-60 days between flushes to let the cow "reset" a bit.  Usually when you push them to quick you can get stimulation but quality and fertility suffers for some reason.  You can re-flush a cow in 30 days but she better be a fertile myrtle.  I've seen maybe 1/10 with the ability to do it while the other 9/10 bomb every time.

 

[HomeRaised]

We just flushed our Shorthorn donor. 15 eggs. 7 fertilized number 1 and 2. 28 days later 16 eggs. 5 fertilized number 1 and 2. Very good semen quality. Starting her in IVF which I would do with yours to

Did you tweak your protocol from the first to second flush? There is a chance you slightly over stimulated her to only get half the eggs as #1. I have been told that if you are getting the eggs but the quality isnt what you'd expect, that you may have stressed her or overstimulated her. Dialing back the drugs a little can have a huge impact on egg quality. Also, how fast you decrease your dosage during the setup can have an impact too. I had one person tell me not to decrease more than 0.3ml, but most protocols you see are decreasing by 0.5ml.

Rec'd, I'd have dialed this one down a bit the second time to shoot for 10/12 or so.  Also, unless your bombing on flushes I'd be hesitant to IVF.  You'll pay twice as much to get half the pregnancy rates on IVF.

I would say the value of conventional versus IVF depends on if you get embryos from conventional. I have $2000 into one cow trying two different conventional flushes and have nothing. The embryologist I use for IVF charges ~$240 per #1 embryo. no extra charges. If I only get 1-3 grade 1 embryos per IVF, its cheaper than a conventional flush. And I can do it every two weeks and even for a period while she is bred.

 

[Lewis_Family_Cattle]

We just flushed our Shorthorn donor. 15 eggs. 7 fertilized number 1 and 2. 28 days later 16 eggs. 5 fertilized number 1 and 2. Very good semen quality. Starting her in IVF which I would do with yours to

Did you tweak your protocol from the first to second flush? There is a chance you slightly over stimulated her to only get half the eggs as #1. I have been told that if you are getting the eggs but the quality isnt what you'd expect, that you may have stressed her or overstimulated her. Dialing back the drugs a little can have a huge impact on egg quality. Also, how fast you decrease your dosage during the setup can have an impact too. I had one person tell me not to decrease more than 0.3ml, but most protocols you see are decreasing by 0.5ml.

Rec'd, I'd have dialed this one down a bit the second time to shoot for 10/12 or so.  Also, unless your bombing on flushes I'd be hesitant to IVF.  You'll pay twice as much to get half the pregnancy rates on IVF.

I would say the value of conventional versus IVF depends on if you get embryos from conventional. I have $2000 into one cow trying two different conventional flushes and have nothing. The embryologist I use for IVF charges ~$240 per #1 embryo. no extra charges. If I only get 1-3 grade 1 embryos per IVF, its cheaper than a conventional flush. And I can do it every two weeks and even for a period while she is bred.

Exactly, that's why I said I would be hesitant to do IVF, unless you are just bombing out on your conventional flushes and getting 0.  IVF definitely has its place, frequency of collection, collection on pregnant females, max utilization of oocytes, sexing capabilities(for now), use of a minimal amount of semen to fertilize several females.  The transfer rates on frozen IVF eggs just needs to catch up to compete with conventional flushing.

Just curious what is your calving rate (transfer rates tend to be a touch higher because you can lose some late pregnant IVF calves) with your frozen IVF eggs?