How does this happen?

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bjkoller

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Ok, so I know HOW we got this calf but would anyone guess this red roan heifer calf is NOT Shorty at ALL... None ~ out of a better than half Charolais cow that goes back to the old red simmis maybe 3 generations back and the bull on this heifer is a Baldridge Fastrack?  Let me tell you we were more than a little surprised... oh and not a Shorty bull in the next 100 miles or more.....

1st pic cow and calf... then them seperate.  Wierd huh? 

What are our chances do you think of getting this again with same mating in your opinion? What about the heifer passing on the roan trait to her calves? Would love a blue roan later???????
 

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OH Breeder

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My first question is where did the cow come from? Did you breed her?
Second, did you have any shorthorn semen in the tank when you AI'd the cow?
The pictures are kind of small. Can you make them any larger?
 

bjkoller

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No Shorthorn semen in the tank!  Cow  was AI'd to Rocky Balboa for a early Feb calf (actual date for AI was Feb. 8th) and then turned out with our PB Charolais herd sire... Heifer born early/ mid March...could have seen maybe a mix up by our AI guy if she had come during that February time frame or close... but not that far off????

Cow was born and bred on the ranch.  We have three of her other daughters all are black from black sires in past.

Pretty bizarre huh?  Can you imagine what the people who bred the bull thought when we sent pics of this calf? 

Pretty sure we will have to have her DNA'd to take to Jr National or any other Jr Charolais show!  Our Jr.s can show composites.....
 

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ROMAX

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I'm thinking mix up in the semen tank,it happens probably more than you think.My neighbor had about half a dozen red angus cows after he got rid of his guernsey dairy herd so he always a.i.ed .First mix up was a first calf heifer that was supposed to be bred red angus,calf had to be pulled,100 + lb with a white face definately not red angus.screw up #2 red angus cow bred to a popular red angus bull,calf came out pure black.this was one guy with a small herd ,just think what happens in dairy herds of hundreds.
 

Show Heifer

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You answered your own question "a simmi several generations back...".  I am not good at explaining things by typing but, with incomplete dominance in the simmis, and the non dominance on the char side funny things can happen! Also, some chars have a dilution gene just like the simmis (that is why you get greys sometimes), if all those genes line up just right TA-DA  you get that pretty little roan.  Not common, but possible.  Congrats!! And get ready for stares, doubts and accusations after the DNA comes back ok, and you show her!
 

tama

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Apr 22, 2007
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had same color pattern last on shortie /simmi cross mother white face orange fleck looking cow dad was shadybrook ceturion son roan bull, heifer came out orange roan not quite dark enough red to look like a shorty. ps I kept her back for a replacement cause she outgrew everything in the pen mother milks like a holstein and I gotta see what color calves she'll throw!
 

justintime

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We raised purebred Charolais cattle along with our Shorthorns  until 4 years ago. I find this interesting as i had two calves  supposed to be sired by Baldridge Fastrack, that were this color. I just assumed that somehow one of our Shorthorn bulls bred the cows, although they were AI bred and then taken to a pasture and exposed to a Purebred Charolais bull that was 5 miles from any other cattle. I remember scatching my head about these two calves, and wondering how this could happen.

Of the two roan Charolais calves I had, one was a bull, the other was a heifer. The bull was steered and he made a pretty good show steer for a neighbour kid. Everyone thought he was a crossbred, but in my mind there was always a little doubt. The heifer was not registered and I kept her and she went into our commercial herd. She was here until two years ago. I was always going to get her DNA's but never did do it. After seeing your picture, I am wishing I now had done it. My heifer was almost identical to yours in color.

My Charolais herd was quite unique as it was bred up from a purebred Angus herd to purebred status. I often noticed that, in the summer time, when the cows were slick, that many of them had a distinct white face and a different shade of " off white " on their bodies. One day I had a cattleman visiting our herd and I mentioned this to him while we were looking at the cows. He commented that he had been in Europe in the second world war, and that in many parts of France there were few fences left and large herds of cattle of different breeds were often seen running together. This explaination probably made as much sense as any other I have heard.

If you look up the foundation of the Charolais breed, it says  they originated from the blending of British Shorthorn and French native cattle. I have also seen fullblood Salers cattle that were roan in color. Any breed that had the ability to produce roan cattle is supposed to have originated from Shorthorn in their background, however, I have never found any documentation that says that Salers  had Shorthorn blood in their background.
 

Mark H

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3G,

Your percentage Charolais cow is a red factor cow with Hereford, shorthorn or maybe some dairy blood in them.  The ability to produce a whiteface or a roan pattern is controlled by a different allele than the color or diluter gene.  When you crossed the shorthorn on this cow you got a diluter gene at the loci for this gene and maybe a homozygous pair at the loci for showing a speckle pattern (like a Speckle Park e.g. an Angus that shows too much white).  This not a rare thing.  Many red factor charolais show plenty of white such as white faces, Holstein or Maine Anjou markings (fullblood) or even roans like you have.  A red factor line that is known for producing white is the Onaway Stonewalker line.  I saw a nice bunch of red white faced purebred Charolais heifers out of this line a few years ago.


Mark
 

OH Breeder

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Show Heifer said:
You answered your own question "a simmi several generations back...".  I am not good at explaining things by typing but, with incomplete dominance in the simmis, and the non dominance on the char side funny things can happen! Also, some chars have a dilution gene just like the simmis (that is why you get greys sometimes), if all those genes line up just right TA-DA  you get that pretty little roan.  Not common, but possible.   Congrats!! And get ready for stares, doubts and accusations after the DNA comes back ok, and you show her!

Both Charlois and Simmi's carry a dilution gene.

 

OH Breeder

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You can have the calf DNA'd for color believe it or not. If it were me I would DNA the calf. I think the coloring is coming from the Simmi background .
 

olsun

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It seem fairly straight forward to me after the other post about Fastrack. It wouldseem that he might just have a dab of Shorty in him. JMO
 

P-F

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We had a red roan out of a Herford/Angus cow sired by Payoff.
 

Show Heifer

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Mark H, you explained it much better than I....

RW, nope, just like there isn't any maine in some of those RA. Wanna have some fun and pull blood at the next big show?

P-F: The angus cow carried the red gene. Got the roan from the herf.  I had 2 red calves out of 2 angus cows and a "double black bull".... ya just never know!!

 

Mark H

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Baldrige Fasttrack is a dedicated calving ease bull meant for use on heifers.  He has slightly above average growth and decent maternal traits but for REA and other carcass traits forget about him.  He has typical Polled Unlimited traits such as calving ease and no muscle.  I like using Polled Unlimited breeding if I could guarantee all the calves would be heifers.  The bulls generally do not carry enough muscle or performance to be easily marketed in Canada outside the heifer bull market.  Fasttrack certainly has no Shorthorn in him.
Some shorthorn breeders used one of the first dark red factor bulls (no diluter gene) to produce and market half blood bulls.  These bulls topped their sales as phenotypically they were more impressive than their purebred pen mates.  Color wise they looked like Lincoln Reds.  This market died out once more dark red charolais bulls became available.
The non diluter gene exists in Full French cattle as well-check out the old Full French Bull Tee Anchor Aiglon.  When these "cream" colored cattle were used on Angus and Hereford cows in the up grading process these "cream" cattle persisted despite being culled hard due to their color.  Some bull buyers started preferring red factor bulls to cover up the fact they were using Charolais bulls.  This has grown to the point where most  breeders sell at least a few red factor bulls.  An export market for these cattle has been established in Northern Europe where they are well accepted.
The statement that during WW II papers were not well kept on many breeds in Europe is true but the Charolais does not have the biggest problem here.  The German Fleckvieh has had introgression from the red angus (polled trait) and the Red Holstein (dairy traits).  European productive superiority should be taken with a grain of salt particularly since Canadian Charolais have a firm foothold in Europe due to winning performance trials.

Mark
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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Show Heifer said:
Mark H, you explained it much better than I....

RW, nope, just like there isn't any maine in some of those RA. Wanna have some fun and pull blood at the next big show?

P-F: The angus cow carried the red gene. Got the roan from the herf.  I had 2 red calves out of 2 angus cows and a "double black bull".... ya just never know!!

I would love to pull DNA samples - All of my sires are DNAed as well as a large portion of my cows. I paid to have this done after a dispute with our assn. Long story short - I know a hell of a lot more about the cows in my herd than the computer techs in Denton. It cost me some money but it was worth it to prove my point. RW
 

bs372280

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Cascade, Iowa
Show Heifer said:
(clapping) to RW
Lets just say its probably a good thing she didn't stick to Rocky Balboa.  In my opinion junk.  Comes out heavy, lighter boned.  Many are tall skinny, or little runts.  My opinion, but I'll never use him again. 
 
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