TJ
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Is IVF safe for virgin heifers? From what I understand it's different than a super ovulated flush, but I don't want to goof one up. Opinions...
IVF on a virigin female
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linnettejane
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ok, im going to ask the "dumby" question...whats the difference between ivf and flushing?
TJ
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cbcfarms said:
It's "in vitro", but yes, it's fertilization in a dish (outside the female).
Yes, IVF can be done on virgin heifers, and even on heifers before they have started fully cycling. It can be done without the use of drugs, which is a huge dis-advantage of normal superovulations. Also, since the oocytes (immature eggs) are removed from the ovary via a needle through the vaginal wall, you do not have the difficulty of threading a flushing tube through the cervix. All the fertilization takes place outside the donor.
Great way to protect the genetics on these high dollar heifers, rather than throwing away money to an insurance company. Plus a heifer can continue to have eggs collected until they are 6 months bred, or until the calf drops too far for the tech to reach the ovaries.
Great way to protect the genetics on these high dollar heifers, rather than throwing away money to an insurance company. Plus a heifer can continue to have eggs collected until they are 6 months bred, or until the calf drops too far for the tech to reach the ovaries.
Cowboy
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This will either prove to every one that Cowboy needs to get off the ranch more often OR, that he is just too far gone to learn the NEWS. I am old school, pretty much, but still retain enough info that seeped in to remember a few of the "Set in stone" basics -- let me explain.
First of all, when a baby hfr is born, there are an estimated + / - 200,000 imature oocytes present within her ovaries. VERY immature I Might fully add.
The oocytes (The imature future eggs) are not triggered to maturity until puberty begins, and then , with each cycle of the hfr, only ONE will have enough FSH and Estrogen to fully mature, with all the other oocytes on that layer of the ovary (Epithelial layer -- kind of like an onion) simply starving and will not mature into a vianble follicle.
It has always been my understanding ( As I said, I don't get out alot any more) that even though you do not have to -- and most likely in some cases not be able to -- induce a real HEAT -- you would still need to stimulate multiple folicles in order to HARVEST more than one egg thru an IVF procedure. The IVF - in itself - is quite invasive to the tract of the donor. Sure, you do not need to go thru the cervix and flush out any eggs present, BUT, you still have to use vaginal puncture to get to the ovary -- as it is inside of the protective Peritineum. This alone will most deffinately over time creat at least some scar tissue, and will not be a plus on her future fertility.
The procedure involves using an endoscope type of instrument -- complete with a low vaccum in the needle to aspirate all or most of the follicular fluid from the follicle itself, all the while HOPEFULLY sucking the oocyte out as well. Then, as mentioned, the imature eggs are located, washed, and placed in special media and mixed with viable semen. this is all fine and well to this point.
Any time you are intrusive to these organs, you risk creating scar tissue from the trauma -- and punturing an ovarian follicle IS creating trauma. Personally, I would never think of doing this to a hfr unless she had KNOWN abnormalities that would prevent a future natural pregnancy. I guess I am confused and should have gone to bed an hour ago!! hehehe
My question is simply this -- WHY on earth would you subject a virgin hfr to this procedure reproductively ?? Even though you are not injecting Prostoglandins to induce a heat period, you will still have multiple CL's to deal with afterwards, so the risk of reducing damage is very minimal with IVF, in other words, as much as I Hate doing hfrs, if you go all the trouble to do IVF to her, you might as well wait an extra few months and do it the real way. Done correctly, and with patience, you CAN flush a hfr with very little if any damage. I usually try my best to decline hfrs, but have agreed to do a few over the last few years. We usually get along OK, but the dosage is so low it isn't funny, thus less risk of damage to the Fimbria and Ovaries themselves.
Not trying to dictate your program TJ, but this seems pretty extreme on a hfr -- it really does.
Hope this will make you cringe and run to the barn to give her a hug!! hehehehe
Terry
First of all, when a baby hfr is born, there are an estimated + / - 200,000 imature oocytes present within her ovaries. VERY immature I Might fully add.
The oocytes (The imature future eggs) are not triggered to maturity until puberty begins, and then , with each cycle of the hfr, only ONE will have enough FSH and Estrogen to fully mature, with all the other oocytes on that layer of the ovary (Epithelial layer -- kind of like an onion) simply starving and will not mature into a vianble follicle.
It has always been my understanding ( As I said, I don't get out alot any more) that even though you do not have to -- and most likely in some cases not be able to -- induce a real HEAT -- you would still need to stimulate multiple folicles in order to HARVEST more than one egg thru an IVF procedure. The IVF - in itself - is quite invasive to the tract of the donor. Sure, you do not need to go thru the cervix and flush out any eggs present, BUT, you still have to use vaginal puncture to get to the ovary -- as it is inside of the protective Peritineum. This alone will most deffinately over time creat at least some scar tissue, and will not be a plus on her future fertility.
The procedure involves using an endoscope type of instrument -- complete with a low vaccum in the needle to aspirate all or most of the follicular fluid from the follicle itself, all the while HOPEFULLY sucking the oocyte out as well. Then, as mentioned, the imature eggs are located, washed, and placed in special media and mixed with viable semen. this is all fine and well to this point.
Any time you are intrusive to these organs, you risk creating scar tissue from the trauma -- and punturing an ovarian follicle IS creating trauma. Personally, I would never think of doing this to a hfr unless she had KNOWN abnormalities that would prevent a future natural pregnancy. I guess I am confused and should have gone to bed an hour ago!! hehehe
My question is simply this -- WHY on earth would you subject a virgin hfr to this procedure reproductively ?? Even though you are not injecting Prostoglandins to induce a heat period, you will still have multiple CL's to deal with afterwards, so the risk of reducing damage is very minimal with IVF, in other words, as much as I Hate doing hfrs, if you go all the trouble to do IVF to her, you might as well wait an extra few months and do it the real way. Done correctly, and with patience, you CAN flush a hfr with very little if any damage. I usually try my best to decline hfrs, but have agreed to do a few over the last few years. We usually get along OK, but the dosage is so low it isn't funny, thus less risk of damage to the Fimbria and Ovaries themselves.
Not trying to dictate your program TJ, but this seems pretty extreme on a hfr -- it really does.
Hope this will make you cringe and run to the barn to give her a hug!! hehehehe
Terry
dori36
Well-known member
......not to mention, Terry, that this <<BUT, you still have to use vaginal puncture to get to the ovary -- as it is inside of the protective Peritineum. This alone will most deffinately over time creat at least some scar tissue, and will not be a plus on her future fertility.>> doesn't sound a bit "non-invasive" to us women of the world! Yikes! I have to wonder that if, at times, we just do new "highest tech" procedures because we 'can'!
Cowboy
Well-known member
Hi Dori -- yup -- I do agree. As Isaid many times, I am pretty much old school for reproduction, it has served me very well for many years, and as the old saying goes -- "If it ain't broke, I don't plan on fixing it" .
When ET started out, we were limited as to how to collect and actually FIND embryos. Most new ET techs would laugh till they cry if they could have seen how we had to do it then. We'd go thru themotions of flushing the cows with these bottles hanging from a IV set, a lopng tube would go from the catheter to a 1000 ml tall cylinder -- and after flushing literaly thousands of mls of uneeded fluids thru the uterus (All done cervicly at that -- no division between horns at all and very poor accuracy) you would let this TOWER sit for 30 minutes or so to let every thing settle to the bottom.
Then we would try to syphon off all but a hundred or so ml's of it, and pour the remainder into these very large unfriendly dishes. Holy smokes, it took hours to find evena few of the eggs.
I went to a syringe flush - low volume, in 1982, as well as going into each uterin horn seperately. Wow what a difference that made. Many years later we now have today's accepted procedure of hanging bags of pre-made medias, y-junction tubing conenncted to a very accurate and simple filter system. Costs more sure -- but it is very easy to set up and there is very little risk of outside materials getting in there. A pretty good system.
Bottom line is this I guess, and you are probably correct in saying what you did -- I don't always agree with some of the things we CAN do, I always ask WHY would you need to do this?? IVF is a fairly good service on reproductively challenged cows -- but in my book -- it is the END OF THE ROAD for most of them that will no longer flush good embryos the normal way.
Any way -- hope I didn'tmake any one mad here -- I take this business really seriously, and my long term goal of NEVER causing damage is always first on my mind with every cow we do.
Take care folks -- got to go spray some thistles again -- stupid things!
Terry
When ET started out, we were limited as to how to collect and actually FIND embryos. Most new ET techs would laugh till they cry if they could have seen how we had to do it then. We'd go thru themotions of flushing the cows with these bottles hanging from a IV set, a lopng tube would go from the catheter to a 1000 ml tall cylinder -- and after flushing literaly thousands of mls of uneeded fluids thru the uterus (All done cervicly at that -- no division between horns at all and very poor accuracy) you would let this TOWER sit for 30 minutes or so to let every thing settle to the bottom.
Then we would try to syphon off all but a hundred or so ml's of it, and pour the remainder into these very large unfriendly dishes. Holy smokes, it took hours to find evena few of the eggs.
I went to a syringe flush - low volume, in 1982, as well as going into each uterin horn seperately. Wow what a difference that made. Many years later we now have today's accepted procedure of hanging bags of pre-made medias, y-junction tubing conenncted to a very accurate and simple filter system. Costs more sure -- but it is very easy to set up and there is very little risk of outside materials getting in there. A pretty good system.
Bottom line is this I guess, and you are probably correct in saying what you did -- I don't always agree with some of the things we CAN do, I always ask WHY would you need to do this?? IVF is a fairly good service on reproductively challenged cows -- but in my book -- it is the END OF THE ROAD for most of them that will no longer flush good embryos the normal way.
Any way -- hope I didn'tmake any one mad here -- I take this business really seriously, and my long term goal of NEVER causing damage is always first on my mind with every cow we do.
Take care folks -- got to go spray some thistles again -- stupid things!
Terry
Cowboy
Well-known member
Cliffem -- sure -- I have done alot of those like that. It is actually a fairly easy deal as long as she is big enough to work in and has had some good heats. You only get the one she made while in heat -- no drugs involved. About 3 times out of 4 tries you will get a transferable egg. or at least one that was fertilized -- you will not always find one here and there -- but it is a good way to try and get a pregnancy or two on a hfr before she is old enough to stay bred, as long as she is well grown.
I suppose now I will get a whole load of them here to do it on -- jeez!
Terry
I suppose now I will get a whole load of them here to do it on -- jeez!
Terry
Wow!! Just got hooked up 
TJ, the answer to your question is yes you can aspirate virgin heifers.. In fact, you can have close to 100 pregnancies from her before she ever reaches maturity.. Why would you want to do this Because as we select for increased genetics, it is usually our latest heifer that has the best genetics and we want to promote her and research her faster and more efficiently.. In one year- a cow can have up to 150 calves the following year, imagine your accuracy of your EPDs In 1 yr you can test to actually find out if your female line is actually what you want it to be.. Her oocytes can be fertilized to as many bulls as well.. A typical aspirate will yield up to 20 viable oocytes.. Usually resulting in 7-10 pregnancies per aspirate.. Cows can be aspirated every 7-14 days with NO SCAR tissue .. When you aspirate a follicle (an experienced aspirator) you do not cause trauma to the ovary itself, also the ovary is composed of granualosa tissue which is continually growing through live with follicular waves.. Heifers are born with 300-500,000 immature oocytes which are cultured in a media.. Aspiration on cattle is less traumatic than natural mating trauma on the vaginal wall by a bull- i do not need to elaborate.. I work with a company called Vitrogen USA out of Decatur, TX that is th 17th lab world wide for IVF.. This lab has been commercially doing IVF for over 16 yrs and is rapidly growing in the latin countries and has just now come to the USA.. They have excellent success- in fact they guaarantee 100% conceptioins at 60 days, the clients do not pay until a pregnancy is comfirmed at 60days and the fetus is sexed at that time.. visit www.vitrogenusa.com for more info or email me with more questions.. God Bless!!!
Dr. Joe Ables
Wise County Animal Clinic
Vitrogen USA
[email protected]
TJ, the answer to your question is yes you can aspirate virgin heifers.. In fact, you can have close to 100 pregnancies from her before she ever reaches maturity.. Why would you want to do this Because as we select for increased genetics, it is usually our latest heifer that has the best genetics and we want to promote her and research her faster and more efficiently.. In one year- a cow can have up to 150 calves the following year, imagine your accuracy of your EPDs In 1 yr you can test to actually find out if your female line is actually what you want it to be.. Her oocytes can be fertilized to as many bulls as well.. A typical aspirate will yield up to 20 viable oocytes.. Usually resulting in 7-10 pregnancies per aspirate.. Cows can be aspirated every 7-14 days with NO SCAR tissue .. When you aspirate a follicle (an experienced aspirator) you do not cause trauma to the ovary itself, also the ovary is composed of granualosa tissue which is continually growing through live with follicular waves.. Heifers are born with 300-500,000 immature oocytes which are cultured in a media.. Aspiration on cattle is less traumatic than natural mating trauma on the vaginal wall by a bull- i do not need to elaborate.. I work with a company called Vitrogen USA out of Decatur, TX that is th 17th lab world wide for IVF.. This lab has been commercially doing IVF for over 16 yrs and is rapidly growing in the latin countries and has just now come to the USA.. They have excellent success- in fact they guaarantee 100% conceptioins at 60 days, the clients do not pay until a pregnancy is comfirmed at 60days and the fetus is sexed at that time.. visit www.vitrogenusa.com for more info or email me with more questions.. God Bless!!!Dr. Joe Ables
Wise County Animal Clinic
Vitrogen USA
[email protected]
Cowboy
Well-known member
Not to be synical at all -- but have you heard the expresion "Sounds too good to be true??"
I guess I am a " SEE to believe guy". Forgive me, but if I had not done over 7500 donors in the last almost 3 decades, I would be extremely impressed.
Enlighten us all -- how do you do a vaginal rupture procedure , and then the ovarian aspiration, without causing even the smallest of trauma?? I didn't fall out of the tree yesterday Dr. Joe, and again, I am not trying to be synical, but this field is what I have made my life's work -- so I am at least some what in the know on things, and I especially know my way around inside a cow. Vet or no Vet, this is almost too good to be true!
Thanks for not getting mad -- just inform us all -- I am sure there are a hundred people reading this thread!
Terry
I guess I am a " SEE to believe guy". Forgive me, but if I had not done over 7500 donors in the last almost 3 decades, I would be extremely impressed.
Enlighten us all -- how do you do a vaginal rupture procedure , and then the ovarian aspiration, without causing even the smallest of trauma?? I didn't fall out of the tree yesterday Dr. Joe, and again, I am not trying to be synical, but this field is what I have made my life's work -- so I am at least some what in the know on things, and I especially know my way around inside a cow. Vet or no Vet, this is almost too good to be true!
Thanks for not getting mad -- just inform us all -- I am sure there are a hundred people reading this thread!
Terry
dori36
Well-known member
From "Cowboy": <<Hi Dori -- yup -- I do agree. As Isaid many times, I am pretty much old school for reproduction, it has served me very well for many years, and as the old saying goes -- "If it ain't broke, I don't plan on fixing it" .>>
Hey, Terry, I'm "old school" enough that when I was studying Animal Husbandry at Mich. St. U, they were shipping cattle embryos across country using live rabbits. The embryos lived pretty "happily" in the rabbit for a short time. When the embryo needed to be retrieved, the rabbit was "sacrificed"!! Top that one! (clapping) (clapping)
Hey, Terry, I'm "old school" enough that when I was studying Animal Husbandry at Mich. St. U, they were shipping cattle embryos across country using live rabbits. The embryos lived pretty "happily" in the rabbit for a short time. When the embryo needed to be retrieved, the rabbit was "sacrificed"!! Top that one! (clapping) (clapping)
TJ
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Thanks for the replies... this is exactly the type of info that I was looking for. Good discussion so far. THANKS!!
LazyGLowlines
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Maybe this is a dumb question, but can an embryo be frozen using IVF? Everything I read talks about implanting after fertilization....
I had the same question as LazyG but it addition could you freeze the eggs before fertilization and then thaw in years and then fertilize to a bull that is maybe not even born yet? I know they can do that with human eggs.
I have also heard that embryos that are harvested IVF are larger at birth, any truth to that?
How much for a 60 day pregnant receip? Frosty
I have also heard that embryos that are harvested IVF are larger at birth, any truth to that?
How much for a 60 day pregnant receip? Frosty
Currently, the USA is unable to freeze IVF embryos, the best success naturally is fresh transfers... However Vitrogen has been freezing embryos in Brasil a few years now at 35% success, and our lab in Decatur is at 28.5%.. We are continually researching and working to get these success rates higher, but we are already above what the current US labs are, thanks be to God for sure!!! Cowboy, we are not here to take over and invade the US, but I as an American/rancher am tired of paying people to do IVF work that has no success, and no service... We are working with some guys already that do ET work and have contracted them for transferring embryos with us... We believe that IVF has a lot more benefits and is safer on the animals.. As for being a Veterinarian, I do not use it to place myself above anyone, it is just my job that the Lord has blessed me to do.. I would never discredit anyone of their lively hood for I would answer to God for that... Anyone that wants to visit us and actually see the complete IVF proceedure is more than welcome.. We are working on a video to place on our website that will help people understand the proceedure and display that this is not an invasive proceedure... Aspirations occur at the fornix which is at the junction at the end of the vagina and the area around the cervix but not involving the cervix.. This proccedure is accomplished with state of the art ultrasound guided needle aspirates and is scar free.. Of course with any proceedure there can be some irritation or possible scarring, but I have exmained more cows that have had AI guns pushed through the vaginal wall into the abdomen than any problems with IVF.. It sounds to good to be true because of what our society has done to us... Our extreme capitalistic nature has deprived us of our quality of service in search for a quick buck. Come visit with us We are here not for today only, but for tomorrow, we will work to provide a service to clients that is unheard of in today's society, in fact we announce to all that God is our Lord, Savior, and boss If we do not make Him smile daily, ther is no way for us to exist.. Does that mean there will be some people who don't like us??? Sure... Jesus could not make everybody love Him; why do we think we can make everyone love us... Our goal is to glorify Him first and to have a clients smiling throughout the contact with us... We will be in Brasil for the next 2 weeks and we have some aspirations starting up the first week in June, holler if ya'll want to observe God Bless!!!
Joe A. Ables, DVM
Wise County Animal Clinic
Vitrogen USA
www.vitrogenusa.com
[email protected]
We are here not for today only, but for tomorrow, we will work to provide a service to clients that is unheard of in today's society, in fact we announce to all that God is our Lord, Savior, and boss If we do not make Him smile daily, ther is no way for us to exist.. Does that mean there will be some people who don't like us??? Sure... Jesus could not make everybody love Him; why do we think we can make everyone love us... Our goal is to glorify Him first and to have a clients smiling throughout the contact with us... We will be in Brasil for the next 2 weeks and we have some aspirations starting up the first week in June, holler if ya'll want to observe God Bless!!!Joe A. Ables, DVM
Wise County Animal Clinic
Vitrogen USA
www.vitrogenusa.com
[email protected]
Frosty in response to your question:
I had the same question as LazyG but it addition could you freeze the eggs before fertilization and then thaw in years and then fertilize to a bull that is maybe not even born yet? I know they can do that with human eggs.
I have also heard that embryos that are harvested IVF are larger at birth, any truth to that?
How much for a 60 day pregnant receip? Frosty
Currently, no one can freeze eggs(oocytes).. That sounds like an excellent thought and we are working on it, but we will not be offering that service until we feel confident that the success would be high enough for our clients. Now, the discussion with larger bitrth weights with IVF and even with ET is not completely true.. For one thing the actual incidence of dystocias(difficulty calving) in cattle is close to 15%.. That means everytime a cow starts to calve, their is a 15% chance of pulling a calf, now there is also an 85% chance that you won't have to pull a calf .. However, If a particular cow has 100 calves, you can expect that just playing the percentage game that you will at least have to pull 15 calves.. a statistics game Currently 60 day 100% confirmed pregnancies are running $500.. The recips are vitrogen ceritifed free of disease and guaranteed as well.. all vaccinations, deworming etc.. We don't sell them but the recip/donor stations do... they cost $1200.. Our recips are primarily 20-24 month virgin brangus cross heifers for smaller breed cattle and we have 1st calf heifers with big frames for European cattle; there are many advantages the breeder can utilize from the recip/ donor station.. They can leave the pregnant recip with the station until the calf is weaned at 6 months then either receive 1/2 money back on recip and take weaned calf home or take calf and recip home.. what is the advantage.. If the recip goes home after 60 days bred and she aborts at day 120, the donor staion is not liable. However, if she stays and aborts, the station will give another recip, and we give another pregnancy.. sounds too good to be true??? No, its our service for the client which is our comlpete guarnatee.. The "Full meal deal" runs: $1200 recip + $100/month cow care (13 months after 60 day gurantee=$1300) + $500 pregnancy fee from vitrogen usa=== $3000 per calf with owner doing no work just receiving a weaned calf and recip, but if you don't want recip, you get $600 back, therfore total cost for weaned calf at 6 months= $2400 Still sounds to good to be true, we want you to feel no risk, that is our service policy.. God Bless!!!
joe
I had the same question as LazyG but it addition could you freeze the eggs before fertilization and then thaw in years and then fertilize to a bull that is maybe not even born yet? I know they can do that with human eggs.
I have also heard that embryos that are harvested IVF are larger at birth, any truth to that?
How much for a 60 day pregnant receip? Frosty
Currently, no one can freeze eggs(oocytes).. That sounds like an excellent thought and we are working on it, but we will not be offering that service until we feel confident that the success would be high enough for our clients. Now, the discussion with larger bitrth weights with IVF and even with ET is not completely true.. For one thing the actual incidence of dystocias(difficulty calving) in cattle is close to 15%.. That means everytime a cow starts to calve, their is a 15% chance of pulling a calf, now there is also an 85% chance that you won't have to pull a calf .. However, If a particular cow has 100 calves, you can expect that just playing the percentage game that you will at least have to pull 15 calves.. a statistics game
Currently 60 day 100% confirmed pregnancies are running $500.. The recips are vitrogen ceritifed free of disease and guaranteed as well.. all vaccinations, deworming etc.. We don't sell them but the recip/donor stations do... they cost $1200.. Our recips are primarily 20-24 month virgin brangus cross heifers for smaller breed cattle and we have 1st calf heifers with big frames for European cattle; there are many advantages the breeder can utilize from the recip/ donor station.. They can leave the pregnant recip with the station until the calf is weaned at 6 months then either receive 1/2 money back on recip and take weaned calf home or take calf and recip home.. what is the advantage.. If the recip goes home after 60 days bred and she aborts at day 120, the donor staion is not liable. However, if she stays and aborts, the station will give another recip, and we give another pregnancy.. sounds too good to be true??? No, its our service for the client which is our comlpete guarnatee.. The "Full meal deal" runs: $1200 recip + $100/month cow care (13 months after 60 day gurantee=$1300) + $500 pregnancy fee from vitrogen usa=== $3000 per calf with owner doing no work just receiving a weaned calf and recip, but if you don't want recip, you get $600 back, therfore total cost for weaned calf at 6 months= $2400 Still sounds to good to be true, we want you to feel no risk, that is our service policy.. God Bless!!!joe
