Judges on the Mic

[LostFarmer]

Had a judge in a market goat class say something I wish a market beef judge would say.  This goat has power and substance but he is crooked in his legs and has over all poor structure.  Obviously it won't effect him on the rail but he has a mother and sisters at home.  We can't promote such structural flaws by moving him up any higher in the class.  I wonder how many steer judges have the intestinal fortitude to do such a thing?  Once again poor structured crippled up pigs and steers won.  When judges start putting such animals down the cripples will stay home and be eliminated. 

There was a steer that was as square out of the hip as you could make one.  He also was so straight legged he looked like a camel.  Judges can change it all by keying on soundness. 

 

[JSchroeder]

If you haven't heard market steer judges talk about structure for the sake of heifer mates you haven't listened to very many judges talk classes in the past few years.

 

[countyagent]

Overwhelming majority of judges talk structure on the mic, if they don't look at how they placed the class...most of the time the crippled ones aren't too high, if they are they have good reason to be

 

[woltemathangus]

I don't know what kind of shows you attend. But most all the time a steer will be drilled pretty hard for structural problems. The good ones rise to the top...

 

[obie105]

At state fair we had a judge for a breed show that said he would give up structure and soundness for mass and body. This was for a purebred show on the heifers and bulls. I found it very wrong to ok some structure flaws especially when the show had over 200 head and the heifer that won had no base width and couldn't walk. There were much better ones left standing.

 

[GoWyo]

"My first place steer gives up some soundness and ability to walk to the second place steer, but he is sound enough for today."  Heard that in almost every class at the last steer show.

 

[nkotb]

If you are talking about a prospect steer show, I would say structure is fairly important.  If you are talking a fat steer show, they only need to be sound enough to walk onto the truck and back off at the packers.  As far as what is going on at home, I was under the impression a steer show was judged solely on the steer, not what his mother or sisters look like?  Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[leanbeef]

I don't often hear a judge mention the obvious...that a steer does have a mama & heifer mates, and then use that as the reason to put him down, but I think most of us do consider soundness somewhere in the mix whether we're looking at breeding cattle or market animals. Is it as important in market animals as in breeding stock?...No. But it has to be a consideration, and I wouldn't fault the guy who might weight it more importantly than another judge. Evaluation and selection is almost always a trade-off...there aren't many perfect one's out there. And there aren't many pairs in most classes where you don't make concessions and grants. What bothers me moat is when a judge doesn't mention the differences or doesn't seem to notice soundness issues. I'd rather just hear, "She's not as sound, but i still like her better anyway." Being "not as sound" and being a cripple are not the same thing.

 

[twistedhshowstock]

I tend to find it goes the opposite way to much myself.  Yes I believe we have to recognize structural issues, but its a market show.  In a market show we are supposed to be judging the animals as if they are going to hang on the rail that day, in that situation product and market readiness(finish) are the most important traits to look for.  In fact I just had a committe member for a fairly large county fair call me to get me to submit my information and price to judge their show next yr.  One of their concerns with past judges is that they tend to value stucture and style over product to much.  Their issue is that their carcass contest is always completely backwards from the live show.  Understanding that we will never completely match live evaluation with the rail, there is concern when the 2 are so far apart.  In judging a market show we are supposed to be selecting the calf that we think is most likely to hang the best carcass on the rail.  When they evaluate on the rail they arent in the least concerned with how that calf walked or how stylish he was, I am not saying we should throw structure and style completely out of show ring, but when they arent a factor at all on the rail, then they shouldnt be very high on our priority list in the show ring.
Beyond that, using a finished steer that was fed for show or in the feedlot to determine possible structure issues in his mama and sisters is kinda like comparing apples to oranges, yes they are both fruit and both grow on trees, beyond that the environment and methods that get them to us are fairly different.  I would never expect a heifer the same frame size and age as the steers in my barn to carry near the body mass and weight that my steers are, when ideally I not only expect my steers to do that I would love for them to have more.  We affect that by castrating the steers and taking away hormones which affects metabolism and how they use feed, we also tend to push a lot hotter feed to steers.  We push steers to be 1300+ pounds, finished, and ready for market long before they mature skeletally.  All of that can have negative impacts on structural soundness.  While if heifers are fed properly to be replacement females we are going to support skeletal soundness and maturity above all else.  So saying that a steer that is post legged or tight strided or pops a little when he is 14-15 months old, over 1300 pounds and no where near to  skeletally mature is going to mean that his contemporary heifers will have the  same issues is not a very sound advice, b/c hopefully if those contemporary heifers are being raised as replacements then they havent been raised in nearly the same manner.

 

[shortyjock89]

The genuinely soft made, "chubby", easy doing market steers that are winning today are some of the soundest animals in their respective shows. Hard moving equals hard doing a lot of the time.

 

[twistedhshowstock]

^^^^^Good point, something I didnt even think about when reading these points, but those tight strided, post legged steers that cant walk are often tight middled.

 

[LostFarmer]

I agree the soft middled easy fleshing cattle are usually sound or as Twisted says sound enough.  Same show had a judge say that a pig was too deep in the flank.  Haven't heard that in the last 5 years.  Soft and chubby are as a rule the direction most shows go. 

I personally can live with a little leather up front and a little brisket if they have enough hip, flank depth, and middle to balance it up. 

 

[farmboy]

I think we can give up some soundness at a fat show on steers. Yes the argument for the mother and sister issue is valid, however, who knows if that non reproducing steer has any family at all? He's a steer and that's all that matters. Maybe that's why he was steered in the first place.

 

[qbcattle]

In judging a MARKET animal show structure CANNOT be thrown out the window! Breeding cattle need soundness for longevity, market cattle need soundness to make u money. It has been mentioned that " the heifers mates to this one are out there" but there r also STEER MATES. Steer mates that r in feedlots a lot of times on concrete and HAVE to TRAVEL to feed and water. If they have trouble doing this, they gain slower, which means more days on feed, which means more money out of pocket which means u out of business. Structure is the foundation to a good animal regardless of its use. however, one must also have in mind that the end product is beef and they have to have it so naturally there will be give and take. 

 

[rtmcc]

I Agree with the part that the steer has sisters roaming a pasture somewhere hopefully.

But more importantly, in a steer show we are looking for that near perfect animal.  And to be perfect they must offer both product and soundness.  If you look at the steps most feedlot cattle take in the production cycle, an unsound animal will not do it as efficiently or at all if they are unsound.  Many feedlot cattle are first backgrounded out on pasture or in a grower yard where they must be sound to travel over many acres or big pens.  Up in our area many cattle are finished in a confinement facility, often on slatted concrete floors.  If you want to see if one is sound enough put it on slats for 120 days and see how one that is "sound enough for today" but not necessarily sound gets along.

We show steers and heifers for fun. I also buy fed cattle for a living and a balance of product and grade are everything.  But if they are not sound they did not travel through the production system in the most efficient manner.

Remember, we are looking for the perfect beast. I understand sometimes as a judge you must give and take.  I also love a stout pretty one as much as anybody.  But if they are not sound they are less than perfect and less efficient and took more days to get to their end point.  And if we are really trying to find the perfect finished steer similar to the real world, with feed cost the way they are these days, efficiency and days on feed to get there play a major roll.

Personally, I think most people showing that are willing to give up soundness in the name of thickness just use it as an excuse instead of finding or breeding that great one that offers balance, the kind of balance that will keep you in business in the real world.  Thats why some of those elite calves cost a little more the next couple months here.

Just my two cents worth,
Ron
<cowboy>

 

[rtmcc]

In judging a MARKET animal show structure CANNOT be thrown out the window! Breeding cattle need soundness for longevity, market cattle need soundness to make u money. It has been mentioned that " the heifers mates to this one are out there" but there r also STEER MATES. Steer mates that r in feedlots a lot of times on concrete and HAVE to TRAVEL to feed and water. If they have trouble doing this, they gain slower, which means more days on feed, which means more money out of pocket which means u out of business. Structure is the foundation to a good animal regardless of its use. however, one must also have in mind that the end product is beef and they have to have it so naturally there will be give and take. 

qbcattle, you and i were thinking the same exact thing.  You can just type faster than I!

Ron

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

In judging a MARKET animal show structure CANNOT be thrown out the window! Breeding cattle need soundness for longevity, market cattle need soundness to make u money. It has been mentioned that " the heifers mates to this one are out there" but there r also STEER MATES. Steer mates that r in feedlots a lot of times on concrete and HAVE to TRAVEL to feed and water. If they have trouble doing this, they gain slower, which means more days on feed, which means more money out of pocket which means u out of business. Structure is the foundation to a good animal regardless of its use. however, one must also have in mind that the end product is beef and they have to have it so naturally there will be give and take. 

Agreed! Judging market steers means you walk a fine line between what it a steer should be and how he represents the herd he came from. My sister's steer (monopoly X Char)  last year caused quite a commotion at our county for this reason. The judge placed him at the middle of his class for being too bold through the shoulders. The judge made the comment that his mother and sisters cannot possibly be sound (the steer was from a very respected char breeder in S Dakota).  He was however, the only steer in the show that appeared even close to finished. He was far from a cripple and had good flex in his joints. When the class was placed, there was an audible reaction from everyone there (not positive). The judge at state just two weeks later liked him and he would hang well , he just did not have as mush style (hair and flash)  as the steer that beat him. Just one man or woman's opinion on one day, but you still end up scratching your head sometimes!

 

[twistedhshowstock]

I understand the part about steers getting to the feed trough, however for me that comes into play in a prospect or progress show.  In those situations then yes I 100% agree that they need to be totally sound.  But in a MARKET show, a judge should be evaluating those steers as if he were going to be sent to the rail that very day, not tommorow or the day after or the week after, but that very day.  And as he would be hanging on the rail that very day, then he wont need to walk to the feed or water trough anymore.  I am not saying that we should totally throw structure or style out of the window, it is a show after all, but I am saying that in a MARKET show product and market readiness should be top priorities, followed by the other two.  A market stee/heiferr is a market steer/heifer and was cut and put into that class for a reason and thus should be judged accordingly, those reasons most likely did not include his/her great promise as a breeding piece or else they would have most likely been left in tact and put in the breeding show. 
Like I said, prospects for me always have to be sound, breeding cattle have to be sound, MARKET animals should be sound, but I am willing to give up a little soundness in a FINISHED animal that is truly ready to hang on the rail that day.  If he is not market ready then structure will not be the biggest thing knocking him down the class for me, it would be the fact that he was not MARKET READY in a MARKET show!

 

[DLD]

I'm as much about soundness as anybody - I really agree with what rtmcc and qbcattle are saying.  Matter of fact I had a couple of paragraphs typed adding my two cents, but before I posted it, twisted's last reply came up.  I read it, and I agreed with it, and I cancelled that post and went to bed and tried to sleep, then the light finally flashed on in my head...  We've been to 6 shows in the past month, and looking back over a wide array of judging styles just at those shows, it finally clicked for me.  We have talked about the need to improve soundness so much, that some judges have become absolutely paranoid about using any animal they see even the tiniest thing in that they think might be construed as a soundness issue. With some, it has almost become a vendetta of sorts - they're out to rid the world (or at least their show ring, by golly) of all structral issues, big or small.  Much as we need soundness, we don't need that either.

 

[GONEWEST]

When a judge says anything that refers to the "heifers mates" of a steer he has lost ALL credibility as far as I am concerned. These show steers are selectively bred to be STEERS. If you are enough of a gambler that you keep the"heifer mates" at home to make cows, then you deserve what ever bad or good comes from that decision you made to place those animals in your herd. I've got some. Some are good, some are not.  A judge should know that it is almost impossible to breed the same bull to make heifers to go into a productive herd as and make the highest level of  show steers as well. I believe that many shows, I am talking about MARKET shows, are so close that structure can be used to differentiate between animals and I am not for using animals that cannot get around to win. However, saying the reason he needs to be sound is because he might have sisters "back home in the pasture" is not sound reasoning. Even if you are a commercial beef producers and you were cross breeding your cattle "correctly," your best steers would come from the "terminal" cross. Terminal does not mean that the steers are terminal and the heifers are to be used as replacements. Terminal means they ALL go to market. Poor, poor reasoning to refer to "heifer mates."