KSU closed linebred Shorthorns

[scotland]

Anyone been recently at KSU and viewed these Shorthorn cattle. What i udnerstand herd was closed in the 1950's, much Calrossie Welcome who was and inbred sire already make up the base? Sent an email to KSU 3weeks back , no replies.

 

[aj]

I don't they have a herd anymore.

 

[kanshow]

That herd is gone.. dispersed maybe 10 or more years ago?   

 

[justintime]

I went though the KSU herd several years ago. IMO, they may have been linebred, but there really wasn't much there to get a person excited. The cattle were pretty small and lacked muscle expression. They were talking about selling them off back then so I'm thinking they would be gone by now.

I'm struggling with all this chatter on SP about the lack of line bred herds. I understand what line bred genetics can offer you as a breeder, but I also understand that a breeder has to consider what the needs of his customers are. Here is an example.... I have two commercial producers who each  purchased their 16th bull from us, in the last 10 years. Both of these guys come back year after year, and they expect me to have several bulls in my pen that are not related to their recent bull purchases. I also have several bull buyers who have purchased over 6 bulls in the past decade, and they tell me the same thing. These guys want outcross genetics almost every time. Like I have mentioned before, I'm not afraid to use bulls I have bred in my herd. In many cases I prefer them as I know much more about their dams and sisters than I do bout bulls I buy. This is not quite as important now since we have started doing more ET as I can introduce fresh genetics ( both new and old) through a flush. I'm thinking that if I line bred my herd more, I would probably lose some of my main bull buyers. I guess it doesn't matter as much if you have other sources of income or if you don't market much breeding stock.

 

[knabe]

i'm sure there are many people who have worked with these cattle who can offer a far superior opinion of these cattle than i but here goes.

they were ugly, small, coarse, roundy muscled and to me looked like adult live bulldog calves.  to me, their only value was to evaluate gene interactions in a highly homozygous state without regard for selection for maintaining a productive and fertile phenotype.  in other words, they had more than 3 generations of the same breeder, ksu, and little else except to see what deformities, defects, problems could be found by maximizing homozygosity.  perhaps these cattle had few defects in the first place and they are just a representation of selection.  there must be some tissue around to sequence.

here's some discussion of some older stuff.

http://books.google.com/books?id=yzrOAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA3-PA12&lpg=RA3-PA12&dq=ksu+linebred+shorthorns&source=bl&ots=4WOMf6Sv3f&sig=XgfcEs_nC2B53S7nttNR5NyR1qo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZMAgT7PsB4WQiQLn8rnXBw&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Grousepark]

I'm not totally sure about the inquiry, but the KSU question got my attention.  In the earlier '70's my father bought a bull, that was called something like KSU Wonder K 9.  He was horned and at the time large.  It seemed like he had a peak in the middle of his back.  His calves did not work out in this high altitude and nothing good came  from our situation.

 

[justintime]

they were ugly, small, coarse, roundy muscled and to me looked like adult live bulldog calves.  to me, their only value was to evaluate gene interactions in a highly homozygous state without regard for selection

knabe.... are you sure you did not see these cattle?  You described them to a Tee. I went went there hoping to find something that would work in our herd ( preferably a bull) and really never saw an animal I would want to use.... for anything!

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

KSU does not have any shorthorns anymore.  They have Black Angus, Herefords, and Simmi's. 

 

[knabe]

they were ugly, small, coarse, roundy muscled and to me looked like adult live bulldog calves.  to me, their only value was to evaluate gene interactions in a highly homozygous state without regard for selection

knabe.... are you sure you did not see these cattle?  You described them to a Tee. I went went there hoping to find something that would work in our herd ( preferably a bull) and really never saw an animal I would want to use.... for anything!

I did see them. 

 

[RyanChandler]

I went though the KSU herd several years ago. IMO, they may have been linebred, but there really wasn't much there to get a person excited. The cattle were pretty small and lacked muscle expression. They were talking about selling them off back then so I'm thinking they would be gone by now.

I'm struggling with all this chatter on SP about the lack of line bred herds. I understand what line bred genetics can offer you as a breeder, but I also understand that a breeder has to consider what the needs of his customers are. Here is an example.... I have two commercial producers who each  purchased their 16th bull from us, in the last 10 years. Both of these guys come back year after year, and they expect me to have several bulls in my pen that are not related to their recent bull purchases. I also have several bull buyers who have purchased over 6 bulls in the past decade, and they tell me the same thing. These guys want outcross genetics almost every time. Like I have mentioned before, I'm not afraid to use bulls I have bred in my herd. In many cases I prefer them as I know much more about their dams and sisters than I do bout bulls I buy. This is not quite as important now since we have started doing more ET as I can introduce fresh genetics ( both new and old) through a flush. I'm thinking that if I line bred my herd more, I would probably lose some of my main bull buyers. I guess it doesn't matter as much if you have other sources of income or if you don't market much breeding stock.

Im sure those buyers would be replaced by those wanting the prepotency a linebred herd provides.

 

[nck21]

Our ET guy is trying linebreeding on his shorthorns. Some of them seem small, but I'm sure there are some that work.

 

[r.n.reed]

You could take JIT'S question regarding the value of linebreeding a step further.Why purebreds?Just this week Beef magazine had an article about some rancher on the side of a mountain in Idaho and his homebred composite herd.The rancher made the statement that the best bull he ever used was sired by a hereford-angus bull and out of the families Holstein milk cow.Was this bull better than what he had used before?Probably.Was he the best possible?Probably not.I guarantee you right now there are people out looking for a hereford-angus cross bull to use on the Holstein cow they just bought from the local dairy.The real thinkers are calling Beef magazine to see if the Hereford part should be horned or polled.The same question could be asked when using purebred bulls.Was maximum heterosis achieved?Were the traits desired added consistently?Maybe the experience of using a purebred bull with a far flung pedigree was good,could it have been great?Linebreeding is not an easy path for many reasons but at present it is the best system available to offer a reliable quality product to the commercial cattleman.

 

[aj]

Wow........JIT...........I have ahard time on getting a mental idea of(your explanation) of how the commercial deal works in Canada. Alot of breeders down here went to TWO breeds in order to be a one stop bull buying place. I also think there is a difference between a heinze 57(57 breeds) herd and a herd that has 3 or 4 breeds. I don't think I have ever seen a commercial herd that does the perfect 3 way cross with charts or graphs over 10 years or whatever. I think there are herds here that are getting pretty heavy on Angus genetics in the commercial arena. They are set up for another breed to move in.jmo

 

[justintime]

Wow........JIT...........I have ahard time on getting a mental idea of(your explanation) of how the commercial deal works in Canada. Alot of breeders down here went to TWO breeds in order to be a one stop bull buying place. I also think there is a difference between a heinze 57(57 breeds) herd and a herd that has 3 or 4 breeds. I don't think I have ever seen a commercial herd that does the perfect 3 way cross with charts or graphs over 10 years or whatever. I think there are herds here that are getting pretty heavy on Angus genetics in the commercial arena. They are set up for another breed to move in.jmo

aj... I am not a one stop bull buying place for most of my customers. I used to run 2 purebred herds of Shorthorn and Charolais but we made the decision almost a decade ago to concentrate on one breed, and we chose to sell the Charolais and keep the Shorthorns. One of our biggest bull buyers started buying Charolais bulls from us, and eventually decided to try a Shorthorn bull, that he liked in the pen. When we sold our Charolais cows this guy was buying almost all Shorthorn bulls . He now buys Shorthorn and Charolais bulls, and crosses these two breeds in his herd.He buys his Charolias bulls from another outfit.  He tells me that he is averaging two breeding seasons more on his Shorthorn bulls than he does his Charolais bulls. The other guy that has bought 16 bulls in the past decade also uses Red Angus bulls and Horned Hereford bulls. We do have one commercial breeder who only uses Shorthorn bulls, but most of my buyers crossbreed. In 2010, I sold 6 bulls to one producer who had 1200 AngusX Hereford cows. Most of the Shorthorn bulls he purchased were used to breed heifers and he told me last year that he had very good success calving these heifers out. ( I guess he hasn't heard that Shorthorns are cow killers!!)

Cow herds are getting bigger all the time, here in Saskatchewan. There are many cow herds of 500+ and I know of two commerical herds of 3000 + cows within 150 miles of my farm. If a person can ever start selling bulls to these larger outfits, bull selling becomes a major part of your business as these guys usually buy bulls by the trailer load rather than one or two at a time.

 

[olsun]

It is not my intent to steal a thread, but the mention of the cattle that were Holstein , angus, and herford cross reminded me of an attempt to blend those 3 breeds back in the 70's. Can anyone on here tell me what those cattle were called? It is on the tip of my tongue, but I just can't bring it back.I believe semen was sold by Midwest Breeders back then.Help me please.

 

[Okotoks]

It is not my intent to steal a thread, but the mention of the cattle that were Holstein , angus, and herford cross reminded me of an attempt to blend those 3 breeds back in the 70's. Can anyone on here tell me what those cattle were called? It is on the tip of my tongue, but I just can't bring it back.I believe semen was sold by Midwest Breeders back then.Help me please.

Hays Converters are hereford,holstein and brown swiss base. Not sure if that's what you are thinking of.

 

[knabe]

It is not my intent to steal a thread, but the mention of the cattle that were Holstein , angus, and herford cross reminded me of an attempt to blend those 3 breeds back in the 70's. Can anyone on here tell me what those cattle were called? It is on the tip of my tongue, but I just can't bring it back.I believe semen was sold by Midwest Breeders back then.Help me please.

hmm.  some old purebred maine's have that in their background

 

[olsun]

Thank you, It was Hays Converter. But I thought  Angus was used instead of Brown Swiss, because they were black cattle with white faces. I  don't recall any with the Brown Swiss ring nose. Thanks again

 

[rarebirdz]

Any pictures of hays converter cattle?

 

[oakview]

I think I've got one in an old AI directory.  Seems as if they were developed by a Senator Harry Hays from Canada(?)  I'll do some digging and post one if I can find it.