Maternal instinct taken for granted

[JTM]

It is hard not to take for granted the maternal instinct that my Shorthorns have. Once you have had Shorthorns for so many years and watch them with their calves right when they are born, you can see real quick the difference when calving out other breeds. Let's take Angus for example... O0

Purebred CF Star Bucks heifer. This one is out of a SULL Achiever daughter and it's her second calf. Unassisted and standing after only 20 minutes and nursing at 40 minutes. Star Bucks calves have really good vigor.

 

[Doc]

I know what you mean Josh. One of my dtrs called me yesterday afternoon to tell me that I had a cow calving right behind the house. I told her to watch her and call me back if it looked like a problem. I called back in 30 mins. and asked if she was still calving and she said no, calf was trying to stand. I got home about 1 hour later and went out to see what sex it was and ended up having to run the pair in the barn because I couldn't catch the calf in the field.
It was a bull calf by SULL Stockman out of a Dunbeacon Venture x Augusta Pride dtr.

 

[BTDT]

Maternal instinct is something most show calf producers do not pay attention to.  I used to think gelv and angus had good maternal ability, but then I witnessed red angus.
The calves are usually up in less than 10 minutes and nursing within 15.  Of course, maternal ability is something that the reds have focused on, where as most show people have focused on hair and hip structure.
It also varies within breed and of course, opinion. Some people think a cow that chases you down and hits you is a "good cow", whereas some people will not tolerate such behavior.

One selection is not better than the other selection, it just depends on what your management and goal is.

 

[RyanChandler]

Looks like another good one, JTM..  I had a heifer born about a month ago out of an AHL heifer and the JR Drover bull.  The calf was not only up nursing in 15 min but literally running around the pasture playing with other calves in 30.. I've never seen anything like it.  This being said,  I don't know that this is maternal instinct. My shorthorn cows are pushovers when it comes to protecting their young and I don't think this is a good trait.  I don't know how to select for more 'defensive' mothers but while it makes it easy to walk out there and tag a newborn,  I often wonder if it would be this easy for a dog or coyote to walk right up to the calf and take off with it.  The Shorthorns will literally step away from me as I approach their calf.  Some may think this is a good thing like BTDT pointed to but IMO this is the opposite of maternal instinct.  Up until 3 years ago, every cow I had or ever had was at least 3/8 Brahman.  These cows have what I will call maternal instinct.  They will flat out lower their head and run you over if you try to approach their newborn.  IMO this is more ideal and in line w/ instinctual behavior.  I have to question the maternal instinct of a cow that stands there while I squeeze their calf between my legs trying to tag him or even one that walks off as I approach the pair.  I have 5 purebred red Angus cows I bought at a replacement sale so I don't know their pedigree but they are much more protective than the Shorthorns.  W/ the Brahman influence, after the calves are a week old or so they are lax and you can then be around their calves and they don't even pay you any mind.  There is a good balance somewhere.  At least for me, I wish my shorthorn cows were more protective. 

 

[simba]

Looks like another good one, JTM..   I had a heifer born about a month ago out of an AHL heifer and the JR Drover bull.   The calf was not only up nursing in 15 min but literally running around the pasture playing with other calves in 30.. I've never seen anything like it.   This being said,  I don't know that this is maternal instinct. My shorthorn cows are pushovers when it comes to protecting their young and I don't think this is a good trait.  I don't know how to select for more 'defensive' mothers but while it makes it easy to walk out there and tag a newborn,  I often wonder if it would be this easy for a dog or coyote to walk right up to the calf and take off with it.  The Shorthorns will literally step away from me as I approach their calf.    Some may think this is a good thing like BTDT pointed to but IMO this is the opposite of maternal instinct.  Up until 3 years ago, every cow I had or ever had was at least 3/8 Brahman.  These cows have what I will call maternal instinct.  They will flat out lower their head and run you over if you try to approach their newborn.   IMO this is more ideal and in line w/ instinctual behavior.   I have to question the maternal instinct of a cow that stands there while I squeeze their calf between my legs trying to tag him or even one that walks off as I approach the pair.   I have 5 purebred red Angus cows I bought at a replacement sale so I don't know their pedigree but they are much more protective than the Shorthorns.  W/ the Brahman influence, after the calves are a week old or so they are lax and you can then be around their calves and they don't even pay you any mind.   There is a good balance somewhere.  At least for me, I wish my shorthorn cows were more protective. 

I had a Hereford cow that would let any person touch/approach/catch her calf, but if a dog (even mine) came into her sight, she'd chase it right out of the pasture, she'd probably even kill one if she was able to get it cornered. To me, this is the perfect balance, as long as you don't use dogs to work your cows.

 

[nate53]

By the time the calf has gotten up and nursed, and dried off.  I want to be able to walk up to the cow, tag and cut the calf if need be without her rubbing or running over me.  I have a group of cows that will let me do this (part of them are shorthorns, some are angus).  These same cows will chase a coyote around, I have a husky and they won't let him near the calves (it doesn't matter if the calf is a day old or a month old).  

Maternal Instinct:  For me it is a cow getting her calf up and getting it to eat (licking and talking to it), protecting it from danger (not from me), protecting it from the weather.  So if it's a blizzard, she better find some place out of the wind to calve.  Smart enough not to calve in a ditch, etc.  

I've seen some cows run over their calves to get to somebody (I wouldn't list this as a positive).  My old man used to say a good horse will protect you from a overprotective cow.  But I'm not much of a horse person.

Nice calf JTM!

 

[JTM]

Looks like another good one, JTM..   I had a heifer born about a month ago out of an AHL heifer and the JR Drover bull.   The calf was not only up nursing in 15 min but literally running around the pasture playing with other calves in 30.. I've never seen anything like it.   This being said,  I don't know that this is maternal instinct. My shorthorn cows are pushovers when it comes to protecting their young and I don't think this is a good trait.  I don't know how to select for more 'defensive' mothers but while it makes it easy to walk out there and tag a newborn,  I often wonder if it would be this easy for a dog or coyote to walk right up to the calf and take off with it.  The Shorthorns will literally step away from me as I approach their calf.   Some may think this is a good thing like BTDT pointed to but IMO this is the opposite of maternal instinct.  Up until 3 years ago, every cow I had or ever had was at least 3/8 Brahman.  These cows have what I will call maternal instinct.  They will flat out lower their head and run you over if you try to approach their newborn.   IMO this is more ideal and in line w/ instinctual behavior.   I have to question the maternal instinct of a cow that stands there while I squeeze their calf between my legs trying to tag him or even one that walks off as I approach the pair.   I have 5 purebred red Angus cows I bought at a replacement sale so I don't know their pedigree but they are much more protective than the Shorthorns.  W/ the Brahman influence, after the calves are a week old or so they are lax and you can then be around their calves and they don't even pay you any mind.   There is a good balance somewhere.  At least for me, I wish my shorthorn cows were more protective.  

I had a Hereford cow that would let any person touch/approach/catch her calf, but if a dog (even mine) came into her sight, she'd chase it right out of the pasture, she'd probably even kill one if she was able to get it cornered. To me, this is the perfect balance, as long as you don't use dogs to work your cows.

XBAR, I know what you mean but I prefer to agree with Larissa. When I was speaking of maternal instinct I was speaking of the aggressiveness of the cow when the calf first hits the ground. They take ownership right away and start vigorously licking the calf clean and mooing at it. They continue licking until the calf gets up and then stand in place helping the calf to nurse easier. Also, the fact that they have milk after having their first calf. When it comes to these things I believe it is hard to compete with Shorthorn influenced cattle. My Shorthorns I have seen take off across a field after a coyote, go after dogs, and some of them will knock you around if you mess with their newborn calf. Not too agressive though. I like the docility. Docililty is also a very good trait that goes well with the feedlot... I've noticed that my Maine Anjou cattle are more agressive protectors in the field than the Shorthorns but they are also a lot less docile when it comes to breaking calves and running cows through a chute. They also aren't as good with newborn calves. It's a give and take kind of thing and people can breed to their liking.
Here is another one that was born this morning sired by CF Star Bucks and out of a JPJ x WF Athena cow. Her second calf. 78 lbs. and standing in 20 minutes also.

 

[OH Breeder]

Nice calf JTM! (thumbsup)

Our little herd is quiet mixed. The shorthorns in the herd are great mothers. I usually have to watch they dont try to steal calves. I had a cow loose one last year and literally she tried to take the other calves as her own. I don't mind them not moving for me. When we bring the dogs along it changes the scenario completely. Any strange animal or other strange cattle they are completely different females. I turn my yearling heifers out with cows sometimes in the midst of calving. Its always a little rough at first because the cows are so protective. Most of the girls are ex show heifers but we haven't had any trouble with one not wanting to get up and nurse with in first 15. I have two cows that are from out west and are not socialized as well. I can't work with either one of their newborns without a rodeo clown. I prefer my females like they are. I can walk up and scratch them with the new born at their side. The older I get and the less gymnastic capabilities I have, I prefer that temperament even more. one of our most protective females is a WMW x Angus she is one you can't turn your back on while she is calving.

I have to think 50% of the calf's lively hood when it hits the ground comes from the sire as well. I know this is a whole different thread but it also contributes to the calf's ability to want to get up and nurse. That is the only thing I didn't like with some club calf bulls on our XX bred cows. They weren't always the most willing calves.

 

[Limiman12]

Remember that cows will Ct differently around strangers/little kids.....  Last Sunday we had a heifer calve, she was fine with dad and I weighing and tagging and holding the calf....  Did not mind us at all, attentive but not aggressive in the least way......  I took my three year old nephew to pet calf.....  Cow was fine with me petting and holding, as soon as nephew stepped out from behind me she came at us.......  For him into a hay ring and absorbed some punishment!      They really do learn to trust certain people and not others!  They don't bother my five year old daughter typically, but she also knows to be very careful around new babies.

 

[JTM]

OH Breeder, I totally agree with you about the sire playing a huge role in calf vigor when they are born. I have seen the difference in a lot of different sires over the years. Most of which have been fairly poor. I started using Jakes Proud Jazz about 6 years ago and saw a big difference in his calves' vigor. I would compare his calves' good vigor at birth to Complete and Star bucks but Renegade is even better. It sure is nice when you don't have to worry about a calf nursing because they are vigorously rooting around for food.

 

[Duncraggan]

Maternal instinct is something most show calf producers do not pay attention to.  I used to think gelv and angus had good maternal ability, but then I witnessed red angus.
The calves are usually up in less than 10 minutes and nursing within 15.  Of course, maternal ability is something that the reds have focused on, where as most show people have focused on hair and hip structure.
It also varies within breed and of course, opinion. Some people think a cow that chases you down and hits you is a "good cow", whereas some people will not tolerate such behavior.

One selection is not better than the other selection, it just depends on what your management and goal is.

Red angus cattle probably have a fair amount of Shorthorn blood in them!

 

[Duncraggan]

Remember that cows will Ct differently around strangers/little kids.....  Last Sunday we had a heifer calve, she was fine with dad and I weighing and tagging and holding the calf....   Did not mind us at all, attentive but not aggressive in the least way......   I took my three year old nephew to pet calf.....   Cow was fine with me petting and holding, as soon as nephew stepped out from behind me she came at us.......  For him into a hay ring and absorbed some punishment!       They really do learn to trust certain people and not others!   They don't bother my five year old daughter typically, but she also knows to be very careful around new babies.

Small children are about the same size as a medium to large dog!

I don't allow my children around cows with calves (Shorthorns) for the first fortnight, at least, unless I am carrying them.  Even after that they must be within an arm's length from me until the calves are a month or so old.

Farm accidents happen too easily for my liking!

 

[loveRedcows]

Maternal instinct is something most show calf producers do not pay attention to.  I used to think gelv and angus had good maternal ability, but then I witnessed red angus.
The calves are usually up in less than 10 minutes and nursing within 15.  Of course, maternal ability is something that the reds have focused on, where as most show people have focused on hair and hip structure.
It also varies within breed and of course, opinion. Some people think a cow that chases you down and hits you is a "good cow", whereas some people will not tolerate such behavior.

One selection is not better than the other selection, it just depends on what your management and goal is.

Red angus cattle probably have a fair amount of Shorthorn blood in them!

We haven't noticed much difference in the maternal instinct between our Red Angus & our Shorthorns.  At our age we prefer them to allow us to weigh & tag the calves without being over protective - but let a stranger or a dog in the vicinity & they are really aggresive to them!  Duncraggan, your last statement will probably create a firestorm, and whereas I don't necessarily agree I will admit that the structure of some Reds has changed a bit in the last 10-15 years!

 

[Limiman12]

They don't seem to mind my daughter who is there a lot....  We keep her close when babies are new.  My nephew was right behind me, I had carried him up to calf and set him down....  Gt him picked up right away.....  The next day at preschool, his class talked about mommies and babies.  He had quite the story to tell....  Had two today that we had to be awfully careful with, ended up getting calf in a calving pen to get it weighed away from the mom....

 

[BTDT]

Maternal instinct is something most show calf producers do not pay attention to.  I used to think gelv and angus had good maternal ability, but then I witnessed red angus.
The calves are usually up in less than 10 minutes and nursing within 15.  Of course, maternal ability is something that the reds have focused on, where as most show people have focused on hair and hip structure.
It also varies within breed and of course, opinion. Some people think a cow that chases you down and hits you is a "good cow", whereas some people will not tolerate such behavior.

One selection is not better than the other selection, it just depends on what your management and goal is.

Red angus cattle probably have a fair amount of Shorthorn blood in them!

I honestly don't think so. While there have been cases, mainly from individual ranches, overall  the red angus breed has remained pure, whatever that means. Probably due to the fact the breed was not popular in the show arena until the last few years. Now that it is the new "hip breed", that will probably change.  If I recall, the national champion female a few years back did not "type" and therefore had her papers pulled.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Maternal instinct is something most show calf producers do not pay attention to.  I used to think gelv and angus had good maternal ability, but then I witnessed red angus.
The calves are usually up in less than 10 minutes and nursing within 15.  Of course, maternal ability is something that the reds have focused on, where as most show people have focused on hair and hip structure.
It also varies within breed and of course, opinion. Some people think a cow that chases you down and hits you is a "good cow", whereas some people will not tolerate such behavior.

One selection is not better than the other selection, it just depends on what your management and goal is.

Red angus cattle probably have a fair amount of Shorthorn blood in them!//// Considering that Black Angus are descended from Shorthorns-you are probably right O0

 

[BTDT]

According to "Modern Breeds of Livestock" written by Briggs, aberdeen angus have been around since the 1700's.
In 1810, Colling bros. sold a shorthorn bull for $5,000 and most commercial producers used shorthorn cattle to improve their herds, since that was the big talk at the time.
This threatened the extinction of the aberdeen angus and so careful watch was kept and the herd book was closed.
Alexander Keith, sec of the Aberdeen Angus cattle society during the year of 1944-1955 proclaimed the aberdeen angus breed was protected by breeders such as Hugh Watson, which maintained the breed purity.

In 1860 the bull Black Prince of Tillyfour was bred by Tillyfour Farms, McCombie. He dominated the showring, as well as his offspring. Most registered angus cattle today can be traced back to him numerous times.

George Grant imported angus from Scotland in 1870's, and exhibited them. Most were considered freaks since they had no horns.  They were commonly crossed with longhorns to produce cattle that were heat tolerant.


So, the experts would argue that the aberdeen angus did not originate from shorthorns. But were developed separately.  One also has to remember that Europeans take their livestock purity much more seriously than we do in the states.  Anyone that would dare crossbreed and misrepresent was routinely "corrected" and shunned.  Maybe that is why if you travel to Europe, their cattle breeds are so much different than the same breeds here in the states.

 

[RyanChandler]

One day before the Angus breed 'originated,' what were they called. What did the descend from? 

 

[GoWyo]

One day before the Angus breed 'originated,' what were they called. What did the descend from? 

Descended directly from Heaven.  (angel)  ;D

 

[HAB]

.

Scotch Galloway breeders joined Aberdeen Angus breeders in 1862 to form a polled registry and publish a herd book. In 1877, Galloway’s bought their part of the herd book, and formed the Galloway Society of Great Britain and Ireland.