MONTIE SOULES HIRED AS SHORTHORN EXECUTIVE SECRETARY/CEO

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

If it is an embarrassment to incorporate other blood into a breed of cattle, then there at least 50 breeds that should be extremely red-faced for infusing Shorthorns into their formative genetic pool.  I guess all Exotic breeds of cattle should hide their faces in shame because of the amount of outside blood in their current herdbook.  How many fullblood Limousin, Simmental, Maine-Anjou, Chis, etc., are there?  Come to think of it, how many true purebred Angus are there?  How many 70-80's era Angus had Holstein, Limousin, Maine, or Chi in them, as long as they typed?  Wasn't there a fairly recent line of Herefords noted for gray white face progeny?  Maybe a little Simmental in there?  At least Shorthorn breeders, most of them anyway, were upfront about it.  When I used Capone, it said so on the pedigree.  I knew a young Angus breeder that raised a Capone sired heifer in the 70's.  The heifer blood typed purebred Angus, so he showed her at the National Angus Junior Heifer show in Des Moines.  She won her class.  Afterwards, he sold the heifer to a well known Angus herd in Illinois.  He asked them if they wanted the Angus or Maine paper.  They took both.  I was standing right there.  I suppose my jaw hit the ground.  By the way, there were white socked Shorthorns long before Maines hit Plymouth Rock.

Perfect!
Regarding Angus, maybe your experience could help some blind guys on another topic.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Funny hunsley let rodeo drive in  knowing his mommy was a red holstien! So guess that is how he saved the shorthorns!// Surely you jest-I knew several people who saw Rodeo on his mother-she was a desert rat Shorthorn-that probably had some Maine in her-and he was Sired by a Chi-bull-all that stuff about Tribune being his sire etc is HOGWASH O0

I have in hands the `Prime MInister photocopy pedigree, there show Rodeo Drive as a AR and on mother line a BLACK cow called HS Kendra Ann. IS tis cow a Black Maine or a black holstein?
Also, Tribune is by Chianina?  ??? ???

 

[JTM]

I would like to welcome Montie Soules to our great breed of cattle and hope that he caters to everything I believe in... <rock>


^ Just kidding on that last part!  ;D

 

[loveRedcows]

Now this funny, why would they hire someone with no shorthorn experience! That doesn't make a lot of sense to me!

Gee, one could ask the same question of the Red Angus Association...they've had some really sorry execs in the past.

 

[justintime]

I don't think we need to have a discussion about questionable pedigrees. This has happened in every breed at some point in time. DNA has assisted in controlling the accurance of this happening as often, but some breeders don't seem to be able to function if they aren't trying to beat the system. I remember a well known Angus breeder in the 70s, ask me if I knew where to find some semen from a Milking Shorthorn bull named Mckees Matchless Dairyman. He said that when used on Angus cows, this bull left his offspring solid black with no white markings and he really thought adding these genetics to the Angus breed was resulting in outstanding offspring. I am sure we have all heard of Chi bllodlines being used in Angus to design those frame 9 bulls of the 80s. A leading Hereford breeder here in Canada, used more Gallant ( Simmental) semen than most Simmi breeders did... and we could go on and on. We can't correct the past very easily, but personally I think every breed has more ability to verify their gene pool via DNA analysis.

I also agree with oakview, that it is not the job of any breed association executive secretary to sell or promote any one person's or group of breeders breeding programs. This is an area with many shades of grey, but all in all, the job is to design programs to promote the breed and assist all breeders to develop or add market share for their operation. I don't understand those people who write off any person who takes this position, even before they start the job. Personally, I welcome Mr Soules to the Shorthorn breed and I wish him much success in this position. The way I see it, if he is a success in his job, there is a possibility that some of this success may trickle down to help me, and other breeders like myself.

 

[Doc]

Hopefully under no circumstances will the association promote mongrel bulls. Especially ones with stocking legs.  What an embarrassment for shorthorns to have to incorporate another breed. 

Unfortunately, with a limited promotion budget, one segment will be advertised over the other.  In the past, that's sadly been the big fluffy ear side.

I think without the "mongrel" bulls as you call them and I'm presuming that you mean anything with blood other than Shorthorn blood . Which A) is tough to find and B) it would exclude a lot of good cattle, from everything like the Irish to the Maine to the Chi influence. We would be in be in real trouble as a breed.
As far as the stocking leg statement goes , I would say that your new herdsire with as much white he has on all 4 legs has as much a chance of throwing stockings as any bull. Don't get me wrong , I like your bull. He was in my top 2 choices. Probably phenotypically and pedigree wise of the sale, the best total package.

 

[r.n.reed]

I applaud the board for selecting someone from outside the breed.And I am encouraged that someone who has been this successful would choose to take on the Shorthorn breed.If plans are to grow the breed I think there are two primary issues to be addressed.First would be is where is the most growth potential?Can we grow the showring business 200% to double our registration numbers?The second issue is that a large portion of our breeding programs are geared towards the showring.How do we handle the fact that these cattle bred for hair,bone,and the large birthweights required to produce a winner are antagonistic to what most of the mainstream cattlemen are looking for?
One of the things I have always appreciated about the ASA is the fact that they alllowed breeders a way to introduce outside blood honestly.It suprises me that with the capabilities we have today that we haven't been able to find out what is behind some of these questionable bulls.

 

[RyanChandler]

Excellent points, Gary.

Hopefully under no circumstances will the association promote mongrel bulls. Especially ones with stocking legs.  What an embarrassment for shorthorns to have to incorporate another breed. 

Unfortunately, with a limited promotion budget, one segment will be advertised over the other.  In the past, that's sadly been the big fluffy ear side.

I think without the "mongrel" bulls as you call them and I'm presuming that you mean anything with blood other than Shorthorn blood . Which A) is tough to find and B) it would exclude a lot of good cattle, from everything like the Irish to the Maine to the Chi influence. We would be in be in real trouble as a breed.
As far as the stocking leg statement goes , I would say that your new herdsire with as much white he has on all 4 legs has as much a chance of throwing stockings as any bull. Don't get me wrong , I like your bull. He was in my top 2 choices. Probably phenotypically and pedigree wise of the sale, the best total package.

I wasn't talking about bulls that derived from other breeds 20 generations ago, I was talking about using 3/4 and 7/8ths bulls right now. There were no shorthorns on the Arc so, obviously, all breeds derived from something.  My point was- we have enough variation within the breed- I see no point in promoting the infusion of outside blood today.  When I think of stocking legged, I think of a traditional Maine look- solid red with stockings on the rear legs.  I have no cows marked like that, nor would I keep any that were.  I will be highly surprised if Vanguard throws any calves with stockings how I've described. 

I think Vanguard is pretty exceptional too. If he gets here looking like he does in his video, he'll be collected and promoted this summer for sure.  Thanks for the compliment.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Some points, hope remember all!!

First, I think that a breed association is a company that must work for your supporters, in this case the breeders. As a company no difference if the manager or secretary is from Shorthorn or other background, he must to be efficient enough to have to take the breed for a right and higher level than what is currently. Must be efficient! A breed society is a political organization, unfortunatelly, and sometimes some branches are on power and some are not. But the breed society must think first on breed, isn't true, yes is not!

Second, the Shorthorn Ass. register is so close to be honest in my view point, as we can found clearly what animals show AR ancestors etc....look at other breeds like Angus or Hereford where lots of mongrels are raised and lots of breeders believe that these beasts are truelly pure, pathetic! Shorthorn US and Shorthorn UK show clearly what are the mix and where. The unqiue problem, at my view point, is that some breeders insistently continue to defraud pedigrees, as an AR and now a Shorthorn Plus program exist, why keep producing frauds!!! This a not understand, as the door is open and this is permitted with association endorsement. For me, this is really harmful for the breed and for those wishing to start raise Shorthorns. The worst thing is lack honesty and transparency. A breed are the mirror of your breeders! OK, a very little small portion is dishonest, yes but all are under same association umbrella.

Regarding promove mongrels or not, to associations are all Shorthorns. Secretary must look for bureocracy matters and shake some hands as someone wrote here. Technical matters must be attend by technical staff that if possible, to be composed by all breed branches possible as a democracy (utopic!  : ).

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Funny hunsley let rodeo drive in  knowing his mommy was a red holstien! So guess that is how he saved the shorthorns!// Surely you jest-I knew several people who saw Rodeo on his mother-she was a desert rat Shorthorn-that probably had some Maine in her-and he was Sired by a Chi-bull-all that stuff about Tribune being his sire etc is HOGWASH O0

I have in hands the `Prime MInister photocopy pedigree, there show Rodeo Drive as a AR and on mother line a BLACK cow called HS Kendra Ann. IS tis cow a Black Maine or a black holstein?
Also, Tribune is by Chianina?  ??? ???

I think he's making a comment that he believes tribune wasn't RD's actual sire.  I hadn't heard that his sire was chi..if that were the case, that chi bull would have been worth his weight in gold if he could throw calves like that (back then lol)...I saw RD as a junior yearling and he was at least solid red - unlike his maternal half brother sunset strip who was very light red.  I believe there's a picture of their dam HS Ultrabrite in one of the early 90's shorthorn countries and I think it listed her hip height in the 60" range lol...she does go back to a black cow of unlisted origin (not uncommon in the AR program)  Read the transcripts of the Hoyt trial if you have some free time...in addition to bookkeeping, there's a part that discusses questionable pedigrees

Thanks GM. I'm curious about these mysterios matters. Due to this my constant questions regarding these pedigrees accidents.
Where I can get the HS Ultrabite cow pic?
Where I can find the Hoyt trial transcriptions? Some others kind of documents available involving others herds??

 

[shortyjock89]

I think there some some very good points in this thread. Yes there has been some pedigree fraud (most notably in the Rodeo Drive case), and yes, I think we should give Mr. Soules a fair shake.  The real issue is that when talking about the American Shorthorn Association in its entirety, some people assume that it is a competent and efficient entity such as the Angus and Hereford associations are.  it is also assumed that the association actually cares about their average breeder, and does not specifically pander to a select few groups or factions.  The last time we had a true cattleman and thinker in this position, he was ran out before he could even implement anything. Is there a legacy left by anyone in charge of the Shorthorn Breed, or is it merely a shell ran by the few breeders that fill 95% of our breed publications?

 

[TPX]

Lots of talk about pedigree fraud but yet this association still doesn't mandate DNA herdsire verification which leaves a open door for more pedigree fraud.   

 

[RyanChandler]

Hell they won't even mandate birth weight or any performance reporting for that matter.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Lots of talk about pedigree fraud but yet this association still doesn't mandate DNA herdsire verification which leaves a open door for more pedigree fraud.   

Of course, they not ask for DNA parentage as they know that lots will not qualify!
Only sire parentage will solve part of problem. But if ask for DNA of all calves, males and females, in few years this problem can be minimize. But in true, yet exist the AI bulls problem to certify paternity and what was done is done.
I learnt that none will do rules against itself.

 

[doc-sun]

Hopefully under no circumstances will the association promote mongrel bulls. Especially ones with stocking legs.  What an embarrassment for shorthorns to have to incorporate another breed.  

Unfortunately, with a limited promotion budget, one segment will be advertised over the other.  In the past, that's sadly been the big fluffy ear side.

I think without the "mongrel" bulls as you call them and I'm presuming that you mean anything with blood other than Shorthorn blood . Which A) is tough to find and B) it would exclude a lot of good cattle, from everything like the Irish to the Maine to the Chi influence. We would be in be in real trouble as a breed.
As far as the stocking leg statement goes , I would say that your new herdsire with as much white he has on all 4 legs has as much a chance of throwing stockings as any bull. Don't get me wrong , I like your bull. He was in my top 2 choices. Probably phenotypically and pedigree wise of the sale, the best total package.

i am no XPERT but if i remember right the maines with the connection to durham in both breeds  were let in as 3/4 shorthorns because the breed, at least the showring cattle with which i am more familiar (other than some charolais shorthorn crosses in the 60's which were wonderful cream colored cattle) , were all on noassatol unless they had alot of hair that hid it. whether or not it was a good thing it is for the breeders to decide, but i know the cattle were improved over the years. i think it was a mistake to let maines that went back to a base other than shorthorn in but i realize that upgrading programs  in competing breeds allowed that. i have loved maine cattle since importation but there is a point to the idea of both breeds being in the same association because there is more clout thru numbers. if i had shorthorn cows , i would find the best fullblood maine bull to breed to all my cows and then the 7/8 heifers could be be bred to purebred bulls and the 7/8 bulls could be bred to purebred cows and all the offspring would be purebred shorthorn. i may be biased because because i own 2 fullblood maine bulls  that would work in such a program, but when i get my bulls collected within the next month i would sell $5 a straw semen to any breeder who would breed over 20 cows and would send semen at cost if i got first shot at buying the calves. the goal is to raise the best cattle for todays markets.  

 

[doc-sun]

Funny hunsley let rodeo drive in  knowing his mommy was a red holstien! So guess that is how he saved the shorthorns!// Surely you jest-I knew several people who saw Rodeo on his mother-she was a desert rat Shorthorn-that probably had some Maine in her-and he was Sired by a Chi-bull-all that stuff about Tribune being his sire etc is HOGWASH O0

I have in hands the `Prime MInister photocopy pedigree, there show Rodeo Drive as a AR and on mother line a BLACK cow called HS Kendra Ann. IS tis cow a Black Maine or a black holstein?
Also, Tribune is by Chianina?  ??? ???

I think he's making a comment that he believes tribune wasn't RD's actual sire.  I hadn't heard that his sire was chi..if that were the case, that chi bull would have been worth his weight in gold if he could throw calves like that (back then lol)...I saw RD as a junior yearling and he was at least solid red - unlike his maternal half brother sunset strip who was very light red.  I believe there's a picture of their dam HS Ultrabrite in one of the early 90's shorthorn countries and I think it listed her hip height in the 60" range lol...she does go back to a black cow of unlisted origin (not uncommon in the AR program)  Read the transcripts of the Hoyt trial if you have some free time...in addition to bookkeeping, there's a part that discusses questionable pedigrees

Thanks GM. I'm curious about these mysterios matters. Due to this my constant questions regarding these pedigrees accidents.
Where I can get the HS Ultrabite cow pic?
Where I can find the Hoyt trial transcriptions? Some others kind of documents available involving others herds??

you can google alot of it. are you looking for cattle without these bloodlines to import or just stirring the pot? british cattle in those days had to get bigger to compete. some people took shortcuts. the technology of today would have prevented those shortcuts but wasn't available. sh*t happens. we all need to move forward. monte might can be the one to accomplish moving forward.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Funny hunsley let rodeo drive in  knowing his mommy was a red holstien! So guess that is how he saved the shorthorns!// Surely you jest-I knew several people who saw Rodeo on his mother-she was a desert rat Shorthorn-that probably had some Maine in her-and he was Sired by a Chi-bull-all that stuff about Tribune being his sire etc is HOGWASH O0

I have in hands the `Prime MInister photocopy pedigree, there show Rodeo Drive as a AR and on mother line a BLACK cow called HS Kendra Ann. IS tis cow a Black Maine or a black holstein?
Also, Tribune is by Chianina?  ??? ???

I think he's making a comment that he believes tribune wasn't RD's actual sire.  I hadn't heard that his sire was chi..if that were the case, that chi bull would have been worth his weight in gold if he could throw calves like that (back then lol)...I saw RD as a junior yearling and he was at least solid red - unlike his maternal half brother sunset strip who was very light red.  I believe there's a picture of their dam HS Ultrabrite in one of the early 90's shorthorn countries and I think it listed her hip height in the 60" range lol...she does go back to a black cow of unlisted origin (not uncommon in the AR program)  Read the transcripts of the Hoyt trial if you have some free time...in addition to bookkeeping, there's a part that discusses questionable pedigrees

Thanks GM. I'm curious about these mysterios matters. Due to this my constant questions regarding these pedigrees accidents.
Where I can get the HS Ultrabite cow pic?
Where I can find the Hoyt trial transcriptions? Some others kind of documents available involving others herds??

you can google alot of it. are you looking for cattle without these bloodlines to import or just stirring the pot? british cattle in those days had to get bigger to compete. some people took shortcuts. the technology of today would have prevented those shortcuts but wasn't available. sh*t happens. we all need to move forward. monte might can be the one to accomplish moving forward.

I googled and not found nothing regarding Shorthorn pedigrees, only trials about non taxes paid and another financial problems.
I wish raise and keep cattle free of these lines, due to this I'm asking for information about fake bulls.
Agree with you that today some shortcuts could be avoid, but why association don't start fastly this, of course that some interest are on the shadows.
If you can get me some google links to exactly where I can get the info, will thank you.

 

[shortyjock89]

The breed never published anything considering Rodeo Drive or any other animal having faked pedigrees to my knowledge.  Any sort of information you'll find on the internet will almost certainly be anecdotal, and probably not from any sources more credible than what you'll find here.  It really is a shame that such things are just swept under the rug...but that's the way of the world I guess.

 

[knabe]

if people are worried about parentage verification, request it, or join an association that does it.

one could also do it themselves within many associations.

 

[BLININ]

Hunsley testified on behalf of the Hoyts! And u believe anything the Hoyts did read the transcripts! I'm just saying c'mon folks the truth is there is not a breed going that hasn't had this done! It's just the truth! Btw we owned a high dollar Irish bull in the 80's! But like the th thing the assoc. Stuck their head in the sand!