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aj

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Could you start a branded beef deal.....with only 200 head......maybe use or own a little local locker? The branded beef deal really complicates things......and probably couldn't be done. I think a Salers guy tried this model and went bust......Maverick beef.....or something like that.
 

DLD

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aj said:
I would agree with 3-8ths 5-8ths deal gets complicated. The halfblood level would be the easiest. Start with 5 breeders.......roughly 200 cows. Trademark the breed. Paper the cattle. The initial herd would be closed. The additions would be made by crossing a red paper shorthorn and a 1A Red Angus. You have differentiated your product for marketing purposes. You have set your self up to be a foundation herd. And you have allowed additional growth of the breed numbers and genetics.

Here's where the Black Herefords never got traction, IMHO.  Those original 200 (or however many), better be good.  If they don't have something to offer other than a unique color and a set of papers, then all you're doing is setting up something of a pyramid scheme where the only way to get 'em is to buy them from your little group and the only place they have added value is to the next level of converts (and yes, I realize that's not exactly a true pyramid scheme).
 

aj

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What is the current makeup of the Simmental assc.? What % of the breed is purebred and what % is half angus? All the Simmental herds out here in Kansas are selling sim angus bulls......f1's....all sired by purebred angus bulls......and they sell the heck out of them. In 25 years.....won't the Simmental breed essentially be just a composite breed with the option of raisng purebreds?
 

aj

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I assumed that the black herfords would be marketed for people who liked Herfords yet felt like they had to be black. I would agree that a breed built mainly on color might be kinda fadish......but the Herford breed doesn't allow blacks......I don't think tyhey have an appendix program of any kind.
 

RyanChandler

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aj said:
What is the current makeup of the Simmental assc.? What % of the breed is purebred and what % is half angus? All the Simmental herds out here in Kansas are selling sim angus bulls......f1's....all sired by purebred angus bulls......and they sell the heck out of them. In 25 years.....won't the Simmental breed essentially be just a composite breed with the option of raisng purebreds?

So many misnomers.  Until every individual in the breed has a fixed % of Simm and Angus blood-they will only be crossbreds.  Composites have stabilized %.  Beefmaster, Santa Gert, Brangus, Braford-- Every member in this populations is the EXACT same % configuration.  If I'm not mistaken, a 3/4 is considered Purebred in their Association.  To me its just a bunch of mongrelization.  A bunch of random percentage crossbreds being randomly bred to each other.
 

RyanChandler

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Gargan said:
-XBAR- said:
aj said:

If I'm not mistaken, a 3/4 is considered Purebred in their Association. 

7/8 is purebred in simmi

Thanks-  but either way, when breeding animals that 7/8 to ones that are 15/16 to ones that are 31/32 back to ones that 7/8 etc... there is no fixing of the genetics.  A first generation 3/4 is about as volatile as you can get.  Now if they would require they be F4 or better 3/4's, they'd produce much superior animals.  But I can see how that would hurt the Associations income via reg papers.

The financial best interest of the association is not always in line w/ the best interest of advancing the quality animals produced.  That agency conflict comes into play again. 
 

obie105

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aj said:
I assumed that the black herfords would be marketed for people who liked Herfords yet felt like they had to be black. I would agree that a breed built mainly on color might be kinda fadish......but the Herford breed doesn't allow blacks......I don't think tyhey have an appendix program of any kind.

Herefords are just purebred or nothing. They are even going as far as any bull born after 2011 has to have DNA on file to have papered offspring. They pull hair on any winners at national shows and many state shows are doing it now too
 

RyanChandler

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obie105 said:
aj said:
I assumed that the black herfords would be marketed for people who liked Herfords yet felt like they had to be black. I would agree that a breed built mainly on color might be kinda fadish......but the Herford breed doesn't allow blacks......I don't think tyhey have an appendix program of any kind.
They are even going as far as any bull born after 2011 has to have DNA on file to have papered offspring.

I think that's great!!  An association more concerned about the production of quality animals than with membership dues and registration numbers!  The progression we forego for the sake of profit is sickening!  Production and progression aren't synonymous.
 

aj

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Ok then Ryan. The herefords used to be a seperate breed from the polled Herefords. I guess now they just have one assn and they can "crossbreed" with each other.....your thoughts.
 

cbcr

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I have been busy for the last few days and just noticed this post.  As the Composite Beef Cattle Registry, we are open to accepting new breeds or combinations of breeds.  There is quite a bit to setting up a registry and a breed.  Breed codes, genetic evaluations, the herd book, and the list can go on and on.

In our experience, we also have the Composite Dairy Cattle Registry that we started in July 2013.  One of the breeds that we represent is the Milking Fleckvieh (Fleckvieh).  While the Fleckvieh which are bred from the Simmental breed are all considered dual purpose, but the Milking Fleckvieh is bred and used primarily for dairy purposes.

In working with USDA and the Canadian DHIA system we discovered numerous inconsistencies in proper breed code and identification of these animals.  In Germany and Austria, where these cattle are from primarily, they are coded as an SM-Simmental.  But in Canada with the DHIA system there they have been coded as FL-Fleckvieh.

In trying to find some resolve to these issues and working with the NAAB and others we were finally able to have the FL for the breed designation for the Milking Fleckvieh, this was not an easy feat by any means and we had many hurdles and obstacles to overcome.  Next step now that we could have the FL breed code was that USDA had to modify their database to accept the FL breed code as a dairy breed.  We were finally able to get this accomplished in December 2013, but it was through having constant contact with the right people to get all of this accomplished.

Next problem is fairs and shows.  Many fairs and shows have limited availability for space for showing and exhibiting animals.  But again it is something that can be done and takes time.

With the beef industry, from some of our research and in also conversations we have had with producers, seedstock and commercial, one of the biggest problems for many commercial producers is such varying breed percentages.  With many of the Associations, their composites must have a minimum of 25% of that breed, except the Chianina which only has to have 6% (I think).

Why such varying percentages were allowed.  GREED.  When all of these other registries started allowing breeders to use Angus, they didn't make a rule that the purebred composite had to be a 5/8 x 3/8 combination.  By allowing whatever breed percentage it would allow them to register more animals = more money.

We as the Composite Beef Cattle Registry are in the process of changing our rules regarding composites.  Yes we will still register whatever breed combination and percentages so that breeders can  identify, track, document and maintain the ancestry of past generations and future offspring.  We are adding a Purebred Composite Division that for a 2 breed Composite must be a 5/8 x 3/8 combination, or for a 4-breed composite each breed should be 25%.  We would be very willing to look at ideas and suggestions.

As for value-added opportunities, I can tell you that we have a web-based program that we have been writing on and should be ready hopefully within the next month.  I met with the programmers Monday and we are down to finishing the screens and doing some final editing.  Our program is a true from conception to consumption program.  Above all it is and will be easy to use.

For what very few people that know a little about it, we have state groups, Associations, feedlots and breeders (Seedstock and Commercial) ready to use our program.  Just stay tuned for the most comprehensive software program that will soon be available.  I can guarantee that there is nothing like this available from anywhere else.
 

DLD

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aj said:
I assumed that the black herfords would be marketed for people who liked Herfords yet felt like they had to be black. I would agree that a breed built mainly on color might be kinda fadish......but the Herford breed doesn't allow blacks......I don't think tyhey have an appendix program of any kind.

You're right about the Hereford's not registering any percentage cattle, just like the Angus breed doesn't either.  My point is just that there are lots of Hereford x Angus cross cattle out there that have more to offer than the registered Black Herefords that I've seen, but because their herd book is closed there's no opportunity to register anything that's not based on those already registered.  Apparently in that case the original cattle were based primarily on color and not much else. 

I just meant that if you hope to be successful with a new breed, they need to offer enough quality that other cattlemen look at them and think "I need to own some of those" rather than thinking "If I want some of those, I can raise some just like that only better".  You're going to have to create some "synergy" - something where the result is greater than the sum of the two parts used to create it.  If you've got synergy, you've got a marketable product - if not you've got more crossbred cattle with papers.

 

cbcr

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You're right about the Hereford's not registering any percentage cattle, just like the Angus breed doesn't either.  My point is just that there are lots of Hereford x Angus cross cattle out there that have more to offer than the registered Black Herefords that I've seen, but because their herd book is closed there's no opportunity to register anything that's not based on those already registered.  Apparently in that case the original cattle were based primarily on color and not much else.

This is true, we have seen many good quality Angus and Hereford cattle, that because the herdbooks are closed, are not eligible to be registered with their respective breed registry because.  Many of these breeders have hand written or computer records on these cattle.  This is another service that the Composite Beef Cattle Registry offers is the capability of registering animals where the breed herdbooks are closed such as the Angus, Hereford, Galloway, and a few others.

The Composite Beef Cattle Registry is here and is available to serve the needs of the beef industry!
 

aj

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So the composite beef registry.....is non-profit or what? What does it cost? Essentially it is cut down low cost......not quite a breed association? Who would setup the.......required percentages? Could you have one herd set up registries for itself only? Is this concept competition or a threat to large breeds? I could see.......say the Angus association attacking a composite system from a market share aspect.
 

cbcr

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So the composite beef registry.....is non-profit or what? What does it cost? Essentially it is cut down low cost......not quite a breed association? Who would setup the.......required percentages? Could you have one herd set up registries for itself only? Is this concept competition or a threat to large breeds? I could see.......say the Angus association attacking a composite system from a market share aspect.

The Composite Beef Cattle Registry is a for profit entity.  Our rates are very affordable, Membership is $25 annually and Junior Membership is $10 annually.  Our registration rates start at $10 for animals under 240 days of age, and the highest rate is $35 for animals that are over 24 months of age.  (For new members we give them the opportunity during the first year of membership to register animals of any age for our lowest rate of $10 per head.

We don't deal with the politics and policies that many other registries experience.  We are here for the breeders!

With some of the breeds experiencing such low membership and numbers of cattle, we offer them a solution to by registering their cattle through our Registry.  Some Associations no longer exist but there are still breeders that like the breed and wish to continue on.  While they have everything either written down or in a computer, they have no genetic evaluation or EPDs.  Along with the registration and through whole herd reporting we offer EPDs (monthly) which is truly multi-breed with a database containing over 40 breeds and over 3 million animals.

In order to have EPDs a group normally would need to have at least 1,000 active animals to have a meaningful evaluation.  With our situation, even 1 herd can have an evaluation.

The way we are seeing things, there are two things that are happening.

First with Seedstock producers, most of the breed associations membership and services are expensive.  Many have a membership of $100 annually.  Then with whole herd reporting, you are charged anywhere from $15 and up annually for the active cows in your herd, but you do receive a free registration with that.  Our membership is $25 annually and our whole herd reporting is only $10 per active cow and registration is 1/2 the rate.

For example on a 100 cow herd, with many registries you would pay $100 for the membership and at $15 per active animal for whole herd reporting another $1,500 for a total of $1,600 per year.  Now the same 100 cow herd with us would pay $25 for membership and $10 per cow for whole herd reporting for a base total of $1,025.  (now if a breeder only registers 50% of the calves at $5 per head (the 1/2 rate) that would be another $250) for an annual total of $1,275.  Saving a breeder $325.  Many breeders have more than one breed, so add the cost of additional memberships for each Association.  These costs all ad up.

If you look at a little of what is going on, there are a few Angus guys that have purebred herds that are not registered with the Angus Association, but they sell bulls for breeding purposes from those herds.  How many times have seedstock producers sold bulls to commercial customers and these commercial guys could care less about the papers.

Secondly, from comments that we have heard from some commercial producers, the biggiest reason they do not use Composite bulls is there is not set breed percentage.  For example: Brangus, Santa Gertrudis, just to name a couple of breeds are a 5/8 x 3/8 breed composition.  Now look at the other registries, Simmental, Limousin, Gelbvieh, etc. and their composites can be any percentage of Angus as long as their is 25% of the Association breed in the cross.

By setting some standards, we feel that commercial producers would be more willing to use Composite bulls with set breed percentages.  And many of these producers have crossbred cattle, but even if they have straightbred cattle, with our multi-breed EPDs they could know how a bull would possibly work in their herds.

Now, with our new livestock management program just about ready for use.  We can first of all gather and extensive amount of information, but mainly we can offer producers (yes even small producers) tha ability to take advantage of Value-Added marketing opportunities that can add to bottom-line profits!
 

aj

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Very interesting....seems almost this might work well for something like the Durham Red deal.....or simmi-angus deal.
 

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