New info on DS from the ASA.

[RyanChandler]

if you bar all carriers, you dead end the rest of their genetics.

Only of those particular individuals. It's not like every member of the line is a carrier.

 

[beebe]

Forgive me if this is a dumb question but I don't know the answer.  If I find wonder bull and he is a carrier of any one of the known defects and I breed him to a cow that is clean what are the odds of producing a calf that is not a carrier?

 

[PDJ]

Forgive me if this is a dumb question but I don't know the answer.  If I find wonder bull and he is a carrier of any one of the known defects and I breed him to a cow that is clean what are the odds of producing a calf that is not a carrier?

In that case your odds are 50/50.

 

[knabe]

Forgive me if this is a dumb question but I don't know the answer.  If I find wonder bull and he is a carrier of any one of the known defects and I breed him to a cow that is clean what are the odds of producing a calf that is not a carrier?

for those that keep asking this question, what have you found to be the most effective tool to understanding the distribution of defects?


at some level, those who breed animals should at the very least be able to understand this in order to be responsible breeders. 


time after time, people always blame the animal they didn't raise.

 

[beebe]

PDJ, thank for your answer.  Knabe, since all of the registered shorthorns that I have I purchased from someone else I do have to be suspect until I get them tested.  In the case of my registered shorthorns they are all native and they will all be tested and if anything is a carrier it will go away.  I have never seen a defective calf in my commercial herd or in the shorthorns that I raised many years ago.  Now that I am venturing into raising shorthorns again I do have things that I need to learn.  One of the best ways that I know of to learn things that I do not know is to ask questions.  This is the first time that I have asked this question and now that I have the answer I won't have to ask this question again.  I might have to ask another one in the future.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Sometimes, reading the forum discussions, I think that people wish to fight against another than discuss a matter.
Regarding genetic defects, I think that is easy work with it.
First step is do a honest test.
Second, ASA keep an updated site with all carriers.
Third step - the most important for me - at free choice, beeders need use what genetics they wish...carriers or not.
If you wish to make commercial cattle for fat/slaughter...use it and send all for hook!
If you wish to be a breeder player as clubbie...Ok....go ahead.
If you wish to try keep your herd clean, running some risk of not have available genetics in future....OK...do it.
If you wish use carriers and keep it on mating herd, running the risk to have on few years a lot of deade calves and no more profit....OK...is your herd.
At my view point, the breeder have all domain under your herd and your choices....by my understanding, none person will dictate that you must use a carrier if you wish not.
Easy! No stress.
For me this is like use asterisk or asterisk free genetics.....use if you want, if not want...go drink a tea, a beer, a whisky, water, run, wine....

 

[knabe]

  This is the first time that I have asked this question and now that I have the answer I won't have to ask this question again.  I might have to ask another one in the future.

I'm not asking you to not ask the question again. i'm asking what is effective to communicate to people who are just starting out what a recessive defect is and what it means to have a carrier and breed one to a potential carrier and if they are prepared for the consequences.


rarely do people get feedback on what is effective.

 

[beebe]

  This is the first time that I have asked this question and now that I have the answer I won't have to ask this question again.  I might have to ask another one in the future.

I'm not asking you to not ask the question again. i'm asking what is effective to communicate to people who are just starting out what a recessive defect is and what it means to have a carrier and breed one to a potential carrier and if they are prepared for the consequences.


rarely do people get feedback on what is effective.

Probably what works for me won't be the best for everyone.  For me answers to my questions as I think of them is the best way I know of to learn.  For example the next question is if a carrier female is bred to a non carrier bull and the resulting calf is a non carrier then there should be no problem from then on right?  Or does the recessive gene reserve the right to show up in the future?

 

[OH Breeder]

I think the reason that DS really hasn't reared its ugly head is because there aren't many PHAC (I can't think of any besides Irish Whiskey that are really used at all.)bulls that are heavily used right now. Ones that would make more PHA carrier cows.

Double Stuff and Double Vision are PHAC ?

Yes they are and I would guess that a lot of clubby cattle operations has at least one cow that goes back to these bulls but are there operations that are still AI-in heavily to either of these bulls? Im just wondering.

there are more calves out there then you think.

In my questioning and discussing with some of the folks involved. PHA and DS reside in the same marker or DNA strand. That is why it tends to be more severe mutation. I am not a scientist, but that is the simpliest understanding I could gather.

Xray vision, the list goes on plus a whole host of clubby bred bulls that go back to a shorthorn cow.

 

[knabe]

PHA and DS reside in the same marker or DNA strand. That is why it tends to be more severe mutation.

that remains to be seen if that is a model for other defects.

 

[aj]

Does anyone have any data on steers winning big that were ds carriers? I think the reason there are no clean ds Shorthorn sires out there is because if they aren't carriers.......they don't have the look to be bulls.......kinda like the th free cattle won't win the steer shows. Looks almost like to me the ds defect is simply another tool in the steer jockeys arsenal. They will shoot for the ultimate th carrier,pha carrier, and now also ds carrier. I am afraid the ds defect has put a fork in the Shorthorn breed in alot of ways. maybe 100 years not so much if clean lines are developed it the breed. But there are just to many choices out their in the beef industry......why mess with a breed will all these defects? Its just another head ache. When you can go to the Angus, Red Angus, and other breeds that ban defects.

 

[Doc]

Does anyone have any data on steers winning big that were ds carriers? I think the reason there are no clean ds Shorthorn sires out there is because if they aren't carriers.......they don't have the look to be bulls.......kinda like the th free cattle won't win the steer shows. Looks almost like to me the ds defect is simply another tool in the steer jockeys arsenal. They will shoot for the ultimate th carrier,pha carrier, and now also ds carrier. I am afraid the ds defect has put a fork in the Shorthorn breed in alot of ways. maybe 100 years not so much if clean lines are developed it the breed. But there are just to many choices out their in the beef industry......why mess with a breed will all these defects? Its just another head ache. When you can go to the Angus, Red Angus, and other breeds that ban defects.

Yea, go ahead and go the Angus breed where they don't have any defects except DD and the 1/2 dozen or how ever many more they have.

 

[Dale]

I threw out some Red Angus semen when they said the bull was a marble bone carrier.  Without naming a very popular beef breed, an expert said that that breed will eventually reach the number of defects found in Holsteins, which is 15 or is it closer to 20?  There are plenty of defects to go around.  Defects have not destroyed the Holstein breed.

A.J. raised an interesting question about phenotype/appearance and DSC.  We've now found about 10 DSC and they tend to be some of the best for eye appeal.  I pm'd a couple of you about this and called someone else, who said they would not be surprised if DSC has a certain look.  Unlike those who said THC had a certain look in show steers, I did not observe "the look" but we were not using any clubby cattle then.

My personal concern is more about what individual breeders do about defects than about breed association policy.  Morality can't be legislated, and great policy will not work as long as breeders (any breed) decide to pass along carriers to their customers, especially into commercial operations without disclosure.  Why can't we be like Galloway breeders or Hereford breeders and work together to clean up our defect(s).  Test and tell--don't sell (carriers).

 

[aj]

Doc.......let  me  try  this  again. Read      my        lips. The    defects    are    banned    in    the      Angus      breeds.    They    are not eligible      for      registration. They    are      not      a      hobbie      breed.      They    aren't      a      breed    to play cowboy    and    cowgirl    in      during      weekends    ..............for        the      most      part. I    wish      you      good      luck      in      your    endeavers.

 

[knabe]

Doc.......let  me  try  this  again. Read      my        lips. The    defects    are    banned    in    the      Angus      breeds.    They    are not eligible      for      registration. They    are      not      a      hobbie      breed.      They    aren't      a      breed    to play cowboy    and    cowgirl    in      during      weekends    ..............for        the      most      part. I    wish      you      good      luck      in      your    endeavers.

read    my    lips    aj    why    are    you    so    late      to    the    party      why      did    you    list    a    th  carrier  for      sale      in      the      classifieds  and      why      did      you      take      one      to    denver?      why      do    you    continue      to      lead      from    behind?      you      are      the      one      playing      cowboy      stop      blaming      other        people      and      clean      up      your      act      how      anyone    could      wish        you        good        luck      in      your      endeavors        when        you      say      one      thing      and        do      another    is      at        this        point        a      joke        and      everyone        knows        it.

 

[Doc]

Doc.......let  me  try  this  again. Read      my        lips. The    defects    are    banned    in    the      Angus      breeds.    They    are not eligible      for      registration. They    are      not      a      hobbie      breed.      They    aren't      a      breed    to play cowboy    and    cowgirl    in      during      weekends    ..............for        the      most      part. I    wish      you      good      luck      in      your    endeavers.

Aj , I guess I overlooked your last sentence. All I saw was " But there are just to many choices out their in the beef industry......why mess with a breed will all these defects?"
Now the question I have is if they are banned , then how can they get a reg. number. When we bought the Angus bull we recently did to try on some of our heifers they gave me a printout. On this printout it had a copy of the reg. papers with full EPD's and weights along with price. Now on some of the bulls they have DDC on their papers, so I presumed that meant they were a DD carrier. But yet they have reg. numbers. If defect carrier animals are banned , I'm just curious how they got that number. Not trying to be a smart aleck , truly don't understand the procedure in other breeds. Now this breeder tests all his animals and he uses white eartags for clean bulls and black tags for carrier bulls. So you don't have to keep looking at a piece of paper to see if one is clean or not.

 

[oakview]

Could there be a correlation between the defects in the Holsteins and those in the Angus?  Surely not.  Angus are pure!  I will say two things about Angus people.  They have done a remarkable job promoting a brand and they don't spend their time tearing down their breed and breeders.  At least not on this site.  There's a lesson here.

 

[aj]

knabe......call beevers some time and ask him about my efforts in identifying genetic defects.

 

[aj]

I really never considered anything that happens east of the Mississippi river relevant to the industry......it gets me in trouble.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

They ban the carrier animal, but not ban entire progeny!
(clapping)
Means like a corrupt speaching about ethic!