Old Shorthorn Blood

[justintime]

coyote, I am still scratching my head when I saw the new BW EPD numbers. I have only had 6 calves from Salute but all 6 were born unassisted with BWs of 92 to 108 lbs. I have 4 more ETs by Salute due in the next few days so I may change my tune. I recently spoke to another Canadian who has had 17 Salute calves so far and has assisted two calves.... both from heifers. I certainly would never consider him a bull for use on heifers.
That being said, I have also heard of some big birth weight calves from him, but I have not experienced them. But then I have heard of some 120 lb calves being born from bulls with a BW EPD of +2.

In regards to EPDs, I am really struggling to understand the latest numbers issued from the ASA. We have 48 Shorthorn bulls presently in a performance test together from 4 breeders. These bulls come from a wide array of genetics. Last week we received the EPDs on all 48 bulls. None of it makes any sense. One breeder has 6 bulls from 5 sires, and the dams of these bulls are sired by 6 different sires again. Every one of these 6 bulls have identical EPDs for BW, CE, WW, and YW. This doesn't seem possible. Another breeder who has been sending in his data for EPDs ever since he got into the breed, has only got 1 bull out of 6 that has different EPD figures.
I have 16 bulls in the test, and my EPDs are all over the map. I have two Salute sons on test, that are ET full brothers, and their EPDs are a mile apart. In fact these two Salute sons have pretty good BW EPDs.

We have tried to find someone at the ASA to explain to us how these numbers are arrived at, and if they are to be considered to be accurate. So far, we have been told that there is no reason for them to not be accurate, but personally, I am not comfortable with them and I know I could never talk to anyone about any of these numbers with any confidence at all. Quite frankly..... I am extremely confused right now....!!!

 

[coyote]

Yes I guess we should go back to vaccinating for EPD.

 

[shortdawg]

I've enjoyed reading all these posts and thanks for all the good input from everyone ! I like Jill's post about being a Shorthorn Breeder. I breed what I like and respect the rest. I have a bull that I think will produce those " Saturday " cattle and one that I think will produce those " Sunday " cattle. That's the thing about shorthorns; they have the bloodlines to do both.  (dog)

 

[garybob]

I've enjoyed reading all these posts and thanks for all the good input from everyone ! I like Jill's post about being a Shorthorn Breeder. I breed what I like and respect the rest. I have a bull that I think will produce those " Saturday " cattle and one that I think will produce those " Sunday " cattle. That's the thing about shorthorns; they have the bloodlines to do both.  (dog)

Hey 'Dawg, It amazes me, the sheer number of breeders who breed for the "Saturday" and "Sunday" Cattle, with absolutely NO REGARDS for the "Monday thru Friday" Cattle ( Fed Cattle harvested in major packing plants),or, even the "7days-a-week"  Cattle ( Brood Cows, for which we were once famous).

It'll be interesting to see, how your "Blanco" does in either of the other two categories I've mentioned. Those two "categories" are what drives the beef industry WORLDWIDE.

Coyote is right. Some of us are just raising pets.

GB

 

[Shorthorn_Junkie]

I breed what I like and respect the rest.

I have a bull that I think will produce those " Saturday " cattle and one that I think will produce those " Sunday " cattle. That's the thing about shorthorns; they have the bloodlines to do both.  (dog)

Those are excellent comments. 

I fully agree with you Shortdawg.  (thumbsup)

 

[shortdawg]

GB, The " Sunday " cattle I'm refering to would be " Mon-Fri" cattle IMHO. My example of a Sunday cow on my farm would definitely be my Shadra cow .

 

[knabe]

We have tried to find someone at the ASA to explain to us how these numbers are arrived at, and if they are to be considered to be accurate. So far, we have been told that there is no reason for them to not be accurate, but personally, I am not comfortable with them and I know I could never talk to anyone about any of these numbers with any confidence at all. Quite frankly..... I am extremely confused right now....!!!

This is exactly why i like to see raw data.  random number generator tests usually make it clear this type of grouping is suspect.  raw data should be available.

 

[susie Q]

coyote, I am still scratching my head when I saw the new BW EPD numbers. I have only had 6 calves from Salute but all 6 were born unassisted with BWs of 92 to 108 lbs. I have 4 more ETs by Salute due in the next few days so I may change my tune. I recently spoke to another Canadian who has had 17 Salute calves so far and has assisted two calves.... both from heifers. I certainly would never consider him a bull for use on heifers.
That being said, I have also heard of some big birth weight calves from him, but I have not experienced them. But then I have heard of some 120 lb calves being born from bulls with a BW EPD of +2.

In regards to EPDs, I am really struggling to understand the latest numbers issued from the ASA. We have 48 Shorthorn bulls presently in a performance test together from 4 breeders. These bulls come from a wide array of genetics. Last week we received the EPDs on all 48 bulls. None of it makes any sense. One breeder has 6 bulls from 5 sires, and the dams of these bulls are sired by 6 different sires again. Every one of these 6 bulls have identical EPDs for BW, CE, WW, and YW. This doesn't seem possible. Another breeder who has been sending in his data for EPDs ever since he got into the breed, has only got 1 bull out of 6 that has different EPD figures.
I have 16 bulls in the test, and my EPDs are all over the map. I have two Salute sons on test, that are ET full brothers, and their EPDs are a mile apart. In fact these two Salute sons have pretty good BW EPDs.

We have tried to find someone at the ASA to explain to us how these numbers are arrived at, and if they are to be considered to be accurate. So far, we have been told that there is no reason for them to not be accurate, but personally, I am not comfortable with them and I know I could never talk to anyone about any of these numbers with any confidence at all. Quite frankly..... I am extremely confused right now....!!!

ASA finally updated the outdated system, so no more hiding. JIT  I visited the bull test webpage you are referring to and if the actual BW of the calves, dams and sires is 95-115 lbs it would only make sense that this is not calving ease and the epds would seem a little crazy?? So if I want to be like coyote and sleep during calving season, I have to pay attention to EPDS and selection of practical traits. I 'd like to be a Shortyisqueen and go to the ocassional show/sale because showing off a program is cool no matter what you select for. But lets remember corn is $5/Bu and don't expect a kid/adult to keep  hand feeding a heifer that has a mature weight of 1800++ and a frame score of 7+.  Words like cost/pound of gain and feed conversion were used often when old Leader 21st, K-9 were marketed and these bulls and progeny competed successfully in their day.
Hey looking for Kinnaber Leader 5th??

 

[red]

(welcome) Susie Q!

 

[justintime]

Welcome SusieQ, thanks for writing your thoughts. I cannot speak for the other consignors in our bull test, but in our operation we have been very conscience of calving ease. If a bull calf is not born unassisted ( unless itis a malpresentation) is banded at birth. Any bull with a BW of 110 or more is banded regardless of if it was born unassisted. Out of 140 calves last year, we had only 4 assists. Two backwards calves and a heifer that we did not know how long she had been calving when I found her, and one other that definitely needed assistance. A few years ago I decided to do a check at 11pm,and if there was no signs of anything calving, I would go to bed and check again at 6 to 6:30 am. So far we have had no problems doing this, and last year was the first year we have weaned a 100% calf crop, in a long time. 

I will also mention something else that may come into play with our birth weights. I am not sure where you live but research has shown that Western Canadian birth weights can be as much as 15 lb more than calves born in the midwest US and southern US. When I was in college, a research study was done over 3 years in which cows were flushed and embryos were randomly implanted here in Saskatchewan and in Texas. In all three years the Texas born calves from the same flushes were 12 to 15 lb less at birth. Two of these years averaged right on 15 lb difference and one year had a 12 lb difference. The researchers felt that this is caused by our colder winters, in which the cows eat more feed. They also circulate the blood more times through the body in order to keep warm.With more blood circulating through the fetus and with more nutrients in the blood , this results in higher BWs. I am not saying this is what is happening here, but it is just some food for thought.

We are also feeding these bulls a ration that will provide optimum growth but certainly not maximum growth. I am very pleased that there are about 100 Angus bulls being tested at the same farm, on the same ration, and the Shorthorn bulls are eating less total pounds of feed and still putting on more gain / lb of feed . The raition is a very high roughage ration consisting of screening pellets, ground hay and a limited amount of silage. Tomorrow is end of test weigh day and we are also unltrasounding them all as well tomorrow. It should be interesting to get the carcass data.

 

[susie Q]

JIT
I am glad Coyote is not the only one sleeping up there. Just kidding I know with or without epds those PURE canadian genetics are getting along fine.

I am familiar with the study you are referring to and that  is exactly why epds are so important. So where would that leave a Western Canadian bull like Buster - his actually BW is 70 lbs and I bet Coyote ate breakfast before he weighed that rascal?  Buster finally has epds and is a +5.3 CED
and  -1.3 for BW. I doubt his epds would reflect this with a 110 actual BW, nor would his daughters calve unassisted (CED). Oh look he still has growth and is  above Breed Average and Milk- 14 28 3
Let me know if you need New Breed Averages- we ignored feed trial for 25 years and those Black hides have done nothing but try and we still beat'em.
Susie Q

 

[shortdawg]

Susie Q  (thumbsup) (welcome)

 

[shortyisqueen]

I'm not sure if getting out of bed to check is a sign of calving difficulties, at least where I live. Forty or so of our calves were born (unassisted!!!) in -50 degree weather this year. If we didn't go out and bring them in, we would have found a bunch of calf-sicles in the morning!! 

Might be solved by some April calving, but no one can stand calving in the mud!!!!

 

[aj]

Has anyone heard nobody's fool pha status? She was a paramount granddaughter. On the bw't deal how many people actually weigh calves. I use a lever a scale and calf cradle deal. I plant one end of the lever in ground and push up the other end and lift the calf off ground. It is a pain to weigh every calf but you can't guess by just looking. I've done guesses before I weigh and I've been up to 12 pounds off. I don't think many shorthorn baby calves get weighed.

 

[Rodeo]

I love Coyote's photo. (Way back on Page 1... I'm late to this post.) The cows and landscape are amazing.

 

[garybob]

Shorthorn folks,

We all argue a lot, Yet, we seem to be saying the same things. We tend to agree on BW. And,for the most part, agree on the importance of testing for genetic defects. Most of us agree on the "polled thing".
I would like to say something, and hope I don't offend anyone. The main reason "we" as a breed, are arguing amongst ourselves, simply is that the ASA seems to only be able to recognize that the commercial cattle industry exists. Until the ASA pays close attnetion to that fact, and quits just simply paying "lip service" to those cattlemen with Shorthorns bred for "Commercial Acceptance", this "argument" will continue.

GB