One of our junior herd sires

[RyanChandler]

Quit feeding them like they're dairy cattle and the bws will take care of themselves.  The only calf I've had over 88lbs was 112lber whose dam lived in the mix 30 tub.  Going forward, no mix 30 after second trimester.  I realize my 40 calves is anecdotal but that's been my experience.

 

[knabe]

Davis is spot on. That's the reality shorthorns face in the states. Every breed has its issues but the stigma on shorthorns here is a 900 lb silverback gorilla sitting in the corner of the room.

Of the commercial people that have used shorthorn bulls, is there a calving ease problem?

Also, was talking w a commercial guy over the weekend and he was commenting on the bi heads of Maines. Of course he's used to angus.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Shorthorns are at yet another turning point-the popular show cattle are basically,syndicated-and a closed herd-which is just as well because there are probably precious few real records with which to create any statstics to begin with. The commercially oriented cattle are starting to make inroads into the c-section set-by virtue of no out cross genetics:and by default-there is some trickle down to the small breeder and JUST POSSIBLY a commercial breeder of these sacred new(DMCC LIMITED EDITION) genetics.There are capt. obviously some usefull available cattle too-I think JSF Capiche started the ball rolling-and I hope that there will be momentum from that. It seems to me that unless they are Canadian,or Dual,your calving ease Shorthorns are going to be moderate framed-The Lauer,Jazz,Capt Obvious,Arsulu Osage-Massive-and various offshoots along with Caper-Larson-Dover etc-are not big cattle:maybe the RS DV deals etc are a tick framier-but I think little by little-these are the ones being used,and the commercial few that Ive met using Shorthorns-aren't as concerned about frame-because the cows they use them on add that and the grow-the bws come 1st-and the way they cross ads alot from the cow side. O0

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Knabe, around here, yes. I know of several people who have tried a shorthorn bull and it was a train wreck. I to had multiple wrecks. It's a cold hard reality. IMO , the only way shorthorns gain commercial relevance is by line breeding and proving that shorthorns are relevant. They have to see proof. Right in the wallet. Until then it's just spinning the wheels. It's not a quick fix. It's a slow process. But I feel it's the only way. My biggest problem with purebred cattle is no discipline. Most folks just breed what's popular hoping to sell one for good money. That's not what a seed stock producer is here for. Seed stock is here for consistency, prepotentcy and hybrid vigor when crossed. Seed stock breeders are suppose to breed cattle to improve commercial cattle people's bottom lines. Nothing more. If there is no consistency or reliability in a breed, how can you excpect a commercial guy to get on board.

"How come now sons of EXT produced like he did? Was it because we selected the wrong sons or was he a outlier?"
Larry Leonhardt

 

[knabe]

"How come now sons of EXT produced like he did? Was it because we selected the wrong sons or was he a outlier?"
Larry Leonhardt

being a half sib mating probably has nothing to do with it.

 

[RyanChandler]

That should have stabilized his genetics to an even greater extent.

Brock, that tickles me to death that you now see the light. The use of crossbreds in any system other than terminal is a dead end and a waste of time. 

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

"How come now sons of EXT produced like he did? Was it because we selected the wrong sons or was he a outlier?"
Larry Leonhardt

being a half sib mating probably has nothing to do with it.
[/q




I've seen matings much tighter then half sibs produce very good. My
point is our way of selecting a animal is off.

 

[aj]

I think that some of the most successful seedstock producers were commercial people who morphed into the seedstock deal. They have had experience's........both good and bad. They can look by the bumper sticker ideas and flavour of the month stuff. I feel so strongly that alot of registered cattle people breed cattle and tell the lowly commercial cattle people what to do. Instead of listening to what the commercial guys want. You can not tell me the belt buckle cattle of 60's weren't an example. The entire seedstock people went ape and went small framed to a ridiculous level. Show ring run amuck. Then came performance cattle movement. There were a few seedstock people who refused to do the belt buckle deal......Sitz and the line one Herford deal. I always thought registered cattle breeders were 10 years behind the commercial people. They SHOULD be. Seedstock producers should react to changing grain prices and other variables. The commercial should tell seedstock people what they need......not what some academic guy comes up with. Its regionalized also.

 

[knabe]

That should have stabilized his genetics to an even greater extent.

No kidding. 

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

"How come now sons of EXT produced like he did? Was it because we selected the wrong sons or was he a outlier?"
Larry Leonhardt

Wasn't 3000c a EXT?  Id say he made some pretty dang good females. 

 

[RyanChandler]

That should have stabilized his genetics to an even greater extent.

No kidding.

So your comment, "being a half sib mating probably has nothing to do with it," should be taken literally then.

 

[knabe]

Humor is your short suit. Tolerance is probably the next one.

I'd say in hearts you like to lay down the queen of spades early.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

"How come now sons of EXT produced like he did? Was it because we selected the wrong sons or was he a outlier?"
Larry Leonhardt

Wasn't 3000c a EXT?  Id say he made some pretty dang good females.

Yes. He was a good phenotype show bull. But how many sons born actually were useful out of the millions born? I hate to say it but Trump has produced more sons that breed like him then does EXT.

If you read any of the old timers that have been there done that and accept what they say, cattle breeding can become simple again. I respect the hell out of Leonhardt. Tom Burke told him Shoshone put the Aberdeen back in angus. And the AAA really needs you back in the assoc. he is turning away big big money. He's 80 and brilliant man IMO. If you read his theories and why he thinks that way. It becomes very clear the purebred industry is ass backwards. I wonder what will win out in the end? Cows aren't very profitable these days. Less and less each day.

 

[RyanChandler]

How many of those Trump sons also had him on the dam side too though?

 

[oakview]

I don't think we should lump all purebred breeders into one category any more than we should join all commercial producers at the hip.  I'm certainly not going to tell Brain Cates that they need to change their program to produce bulls somebody in Wyoming will buy.  Every breed has a segment that produces cattle specifically for the show business.  That's their operation and their income producer.  Every breed has another group that produces purebred bulls geared for the commercial operator.  You can argue that the showring should mirror the commercial industry, but it doesn't.  Never has and never will.  It's a show.  Nothing more, nothing less.  I've gone through five show cattle type changes in my lifetime.  The commercial producers don't follow that nonsense.  It's fine for us to sit hear and say the purebred breeder should be producing for the commercial man.  In reality, though, more feeder calves go through sale barns sired by a bull that was purchased through the same ring a year and a half before at market price, or less.  The truly elite breeders are those that have a program geared specifically to their market and then successfully convince people they need what they produce.  Whatever it is.

 

[RyanChandler]

Great breeders inject new genetics into their herd through the dam side.

 

[oakview]

Not very many of the Trump sons in production have him on the dam side.  Solution, Bloodstone, all the rest of their full sibs, Sonny, Eldorado, etc., have no Trump on the other side.  My Big Jake bull is the most consistent breeding bull I have ever used.  He has no Trump on the dam's side.  I've used Trump breeding in some form for 15 years and don't assist at calving anywhere near as much as I used to.  I can't remember the last time I helped anything over 2 years of age.  I don't have a large herd so the numbers are statistically insignificant, but I have only helped one first calf Big Jake daughter bred to a son of Bloodstone.  That was Tuesday night, two days ago.  70 pound heifer calf coming backwards.  For you skeptics out there, I can give you my neighbor's phone number.  He helped deliver the calf.  She's doing fine, thank you.  Several years ago, that same neighbor helped me pull a 120 pound bull calf sired by a "calving ease" bull (negative BEPD).  The dam was also low BEPD, although not negative.  She has since had 4 Big Jake calves with no difficulty.

 

[oakview]

I would argue that most breeders inject the new genetics through the sire side.  In my opinion, the breeder should have a group of uniform daughters sired by his herd bull and then match them to the new genetics provided by the next herd bull.  If he does a good job with his selection process, the next generation will be an improvement over the last.  There are lots of breeders out there that purchase a group of cows, buy a bull, and market the calves.  There's nothing wrong with that.  I just have so much respect, though, for the herd that has followed a breeding program, raised their replacements for several generations, and consistently improved their herd by effectively selecting that next herd bull.  I truly admire pedigrees with family names for many generations.  When I buy females, i like to buy either those that are similar to what I already have in type and pedigree, or an occasional non-related female as an experiment to see how those genetics will work in my environment.

 

[RyanChandler]

I didn't say most breeders.

 

[Will]

I would argue that most breeders inject the new genetics through the sire side.  In my opinion, the breeder should have a group of uniform daughters sired by his herd bull and then match them to the new genetics provided by the next herd bull.  If he does a good job with his selection process, the next generation will be an improvement over the last.  There are lots of breeders out there that purchase a group of cows, buy a bull, and market the calves.  There's nothing wrong with that.  I just have so much respect, though, for the herd that has followed a breeding program, raised their replacements for several generations, and consistently improved their herd by effectively selecting that next herd bull.  I truly admire pedigrees with family names for many generations.  When I buy females, i like to buy either those that are similar to what I already have in type and pedigree, or an occasional non-related female as an experiment to see how those genetics will work in my environment.
[/quote
Very good post.  Definately not the quickest way but by far the best.  Until last year we had not bought a female in over 10 years.  I like seeing my prefix on the cow side.  We have tried to do just what you have done.  Buy as good as herd bull as we can afford or find that match well with our cows.  We have never used any Trump bloodlines until we purchased the Answer bull this past spring.  We had used more moderate framed big middle bulls for the last few years so it was time for us to try a bull with a little more performance and look.  I hope it works.