Opinions on Angus bull type

[trevorgreycattleco]

41/97 is my pick. Great thread

 

[librarian]

My understanding of Bonsma is pretty elementary, and I don't know that much about linear measurements, except that the idea of proportion makes sense to me.
But, I believe the Bonsma ideal for bull phenotype is an animal that manifests the physical characteristics related to testosterone, testicular development and a balanced endocrine system. Testosterone is responsible for building lean muscle mass, well developed crest and shoulders, and libido.
The endocrine system, when functioning correctly, aids environmental adaptation.
The masculine bull, ie one with lots of testosterone, will be muscular the hindquarters, but not carry fat there.  His overall shape will be wedged, large end forward in profile and when viewed from above.

something like this
or this

 

[librarian]

A couple more pictures of Winchester, I don't have one from behind.
And a heifer calf out of him, but it's half Highland, so Highland covers everything.

 

[Mill Iron A]

Bonsma was a super interesting guy and probably one of the best animal scientists period. Call me crazy but the fourth bull down Mannington of Wye.... What a stud! perfect hind leg, there actually is one in the angus breed..... also had a great tail set, good front, super sound, and if we had a rear or 3/4 i bet his shape of rib is impeccable. Is there still semen on him? What did the calves look like?

 

[knabe]

5 units sold here.

http://www.cattleinmotion.com/Order/120113Foundation.pdf

Throne Stock Farm may have more.

he's (manning) not on this list, but has some older angus semen.

http://www.angusjournal.com/salebooks/nwssfemale011714/files/assets/basic-html/page59.html

 

[librarian]

Cotton Angus in South Dakota uses some Manning sons and breeds back a lot to Manning.
This is a bull he bred named Bid Don of Volga 9924.  Registration# 13497782
And a link to the Cotton Hyland 2013 sale catalog to study some of the interesting breeding.
http://www.hylandangus.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/2013-Cotton-Doyle-Hyland-Catalog.pdf
Some have successfully used 41/97 with this kind of Wye/Emulation cross.
There is a Manning son, Alap of Wye that is used heavily as a maternal bull.
And a picture of Atomic of Volga, another Manning son.

 

[RyanChandler]

Big don had got some suspension problems going on.

 

[knabe]

I like the silver dome dynasty bull.

 

[Mill Iron A]

I like big don other than the testicle issue. It looks so bad he would be to the sale barn shortly after turn out with cactus in his scrotum. Thanks for the info, I would have to say he is throwing nice calves

 

[RyanChandler]

Cotton Angus in South Dakota uses some Manning sons and breeds back a lot to Manning.
This is a bull he bred named Bid Don of Volga 9924.  Registration# 13497782
And a link to the Cotton Hyland 2013 sale catalog to study some of the interesting breeding.
http://www.hylandangus.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/2013-Cotton-Doyle-Hyland-Catalog.pdf
Some have successfully used 41/97 with this kind of Wye/Emulation cross.
There is a Manning son, Alap of Wye that is used heavily as a maternal bull.
And a picture of Atomic of Volga, another Manning son.

There's not 1 bull in that catalog I would use. To me, the quality of bulls in that catalog suggests they put more emphasis on 'interesting pedigrees' than on functional selection protocols. 

 

[librarian]

This is why I am asking questions, trying to get better at evaluating things.
Here is a picture of a 3/4 brother to Winchester, reg# 16380178.  It turns out the bull calf I am saving is probably sird by this Wilson bull.  One bull went out and the other went in and the calf was born right in the overlap. Anyway, here is Beral of Wye, the sire of Winchester and Wilson, a Manning grandson.  Thanks for the input.

 

[Duncraggan]

41/97 looks to be one of those bulls that you never see thin!

I think that he is the epitome of an 'easy doing' bull, thick, deep and close to the ground, providing your conditions are not too extensive as far as foraging goes, in which case he may be too short in the cannons!

 

[librarian]

Yes, 41-97 is good for forage only.  Hodge Ranch in Georgia has been using him on these Wye blend cows and the females look good for grass to me. http://www.hodgeranch.com/ourcattle.html
Photo of forage efficient reproductive efficient cow, breeding blend of Wye, Graham and Rito bloodlines and her daughter out of 41-97.
Some people can't stand this kind of cow, but they sure seem to do a good job. This is the kind I have been looking for a Shorthorn to match up with.
About getting fat on Grass- that Winchester bull never had grain and he grew up in a brush lot or on hilltop pasture, thin clay soil.  Not developed on alfalfa or haylage or super nice dairy quality hay.  In that picture he had been on late cut hill weedy grass hay and getting fatter everyday.
So, getting him to lose 200 lbs would not be that easy. 
The Silver Dome Dynasty bull is one of my favorites too, but I always seem to like Canadian cattle. That is just to look at though, probably not to have to feed.

 

[knabe]

Rate of gain is one of the easiest traits to select for.

 

[librarian]

These are serious questions, although they may seem simple minded.
How does rate of gain relate to rate of growth?  Is gain the weight put on after the animal has met it's basic growth and reproductive requirements? Will an animal with increased rate of gain have earlier maturity? Is rate of gain antagonistic to marbling? And does easy to select for equate with highly heritable?

 

[RyanChandler]

These are serious questions, although they may seem simple minded.
How does rate of gain relate to rate of growth?  They are the same thing.  Not to be confused w/ growth curve though.  Think lbs per day as the rate.

Is gain the weight put on after the animal has met it's basic growth and reproductive requirements? No, gains simply means (pounds)gained.  Within this industry, the rate most commonly used is days. 

Will an animal with increased rate of gain have earlier maturity? No, most often the opposite. Think later maturity ==> longer growth curve ==> more days(rate) during puberty to grow.

Is rate of gain antagonistic to marbling? Yes.  Animals with the highest rate of gain are the high yielding breeds- the exotics, the continentals. Yield and marbling are antagonistic. 

The highest marbling breeds are generally earlier maturing==>shorter growth curves==>less days of growth (to maturity) 

And does easy to select for equate with highly heritable?

Perhaps, but meaning more along the lines of easy to point / easy to determine / easy to quantify. Put 100 calves on a feed test.  The one that gained the most lbs in the set amount of time has the highest rate of gain. 

 

[knabe]

Pharo or someone like him ultrasounded calves and claims marbling can be lost and once lost, its hard to recover, suggesting genetics to marble may be overcome by external factors. Its not yet clear what causes marbling, ie the pathway.

 

[librarian]

I have read in an old favorite, Cattle and Cattle Breeders by William McCombie, https://archive.org/stream/cattleandcattle00mccogoog
that once one loses the "milk flesh" of an animal it can never be regained.
In my own experience, however, I have subjected some Galloway and Shorthorn crosses on Angus cows to pretty poor forage and still cut well marbled steaks from 16 and 18 month old bulls. So marbling is indeed mysterious, but it seems appropriate genetics will compensate for a multitude of sins. 
Thanks a lot for explaining the rate of gain and growth curve stuff to me.