Opinions on Heifer

[Haynes Livestock]

Hi! So I purchased this heifer recently and showed her in the heifer show at the VCCP Winter Classic. She placed 6th and the only thing the judge said against her was that she had "maybe even too much muscle." I'm not sure what this means? She's still fairly deep bodied and big ribbed, fills her tracks and is as sound as I could ask for! I'm really not sure what to do with her. She is EXTREMELY stout.. huge top and square hip. I'm just not sure if she is a market heifer more than a breeding heifer? It's just sort of confusing. I still really like her a lot.. I'm wondering if I'm just biased? I've attached some pictures. Any opinions are great! Thanks!

 

[Haynes Livestock]

She's on the right in the first pictures!

 

[simba]

If you want her to breed in the future, the first thing I would do is put her on a diet. She does appear to have good muscling in her quarter, but from the picture I would say she looks way too fat (for my liking at least). I like her side profile and she looks to be structurally correct. I also love the huge hip. I think if you just let her lose some weight she will look excellent! Don't let the judges opinion on her change your opinion!

 

[vc]

She does not come across as the most feminine in the pictures, out of curiosity what is her breeding?
I think she is a very nice looking heifer, but from the pictures she does look more market than breeding. I think she would kick tail and take names in the market division.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

What is her breeding-if she can raise a calf-shell make you alot of money-with that thickness-looks to have some limmy maybe. Id grow her as big as you can,she doesnt need any fat at all. Especially when you get her bred.Shes good,and it just shows how strong that show is. Love to see a Shorthorn cross on her-but there are alot of good choices-STICK with calving ease-for the first one when they are that thick O0

 

[kfacres]

Here is my take on her:

Yes, too much muscle, and EXTREMELY STOUT mean the same thing...

What that means-- is that particular animal-- is likely too TERMINAL to be a highly competitive show BREEDING heifer. but could be a better market heifer.

Are you sure what "sound" means-- when I look at this heifer- I see a monster ended, thick, stouty-- that looks to maybe roach her top in that one picture-- this to me-- in conjunction with the way her hind leg looks on the profile-- tend to make ME think that she either does not cover her track-- or she's straight hocked, and still hits her track.  typically the thicker and stouter they get- the tighter in structure and flex they are.

I have a female that is like this at home-- she's straight-- yet she hits her track... 

 

[Haynes Livestock]

I will agree that she looks fat, but i swear when you get your hands on her she doesn't feel fat at all! No fat around the tailhead (hard as a rock, just muscle) and clean fronted.. i would understand the judge maybe thinking she's a little fat too though. I've been trying to give her more beet pulp and full tank than anything else, but I also don't want her to end up looking wrung out, you know? And I will definitely agree that she doesn't come across as the most feminine! Bless her heart. You're going to understand where all that muscle comes from when I tell you her breeding - she's out of Immortal (a Heat Wave son) and an Irish Whiskey daughter. See how she got that way now? Haha. I do agree that I need to make sure she isn't too fat come breeding/calving time though. And we ALWAYS use a calving ease bull on first time heifers. I'd rather have a live, decent calf & cow than a great dead one. The sad thing is we're in North Carolina and there just simply aren't many market heifer shows around here! I messed up and didn't enter her in the market heifer show at VCCP.. why oh why. We are going to show at the Ross County Open Show in Chillocothe, Ohio in April though! I'd like to breed her to a bull that will add even more depth of body and maybe even out that extreme muscling.. maybe use some sexed heifer semen for this first go around. Then later work on getting some awesome clubby calves! What bulls do you think would be good to use? Keep in mind I want to be able to register the calf, and she is a percentage chi/mainetainer. Thanks for all the compliments on her though, it makes me feel better about her! I knew I liked her for a reason! haha

 

[Haynes Livestock]

Here is my take on her:

Yes, too much muscle, and EXTREMELY STOUT

I mean this with all due respect, because I really just don't know--but what is too much muscle? Or, I guess the question is, why is it a bad thing? I understand that it takes away from her femininity but in a breeding heifer class they are judging females on their ability to produce calves that will be marketable, correct? I guess I just assumed that if she carries the genetics to carry a lot of muscle her calves will too. Again, no disrespect whatsoever! I'm just a little confused. If you can explain it to me that would be great! Thanks!

 

[Haynes Livestock]

Sorry, I just saw your new post! I guess I can understand that, but no, she fills her tracks. As in almost kicks her front feet with her hind feet. Maybe she's a little straight hocked? That I am honestly not sure of. The judge made no mention of her structure or movement though. And as for the roaching, I think I see the picture you are referring to, but I think she's just standing weird. She normally is as level across the top as can be. I understand that she looks too terminal though. It just stinks that she's all I have for breeding heifer shows! I'm definitely going to keep her though, because I know she will be profitable for me in the long run. Thanks for the help!!

 

[WJ Farms]

Not trying to bust your bubble or anything but looks like to me in the pictures the way she is standing is fine and she seems to be up in her top..........which typically means that she is hurting somewhere and she humps her back up to try and take pressure off the spots that hurt.............wether it be in her joints or somewhere else....

 

[kfacres]

alot of points for me to cover-- but I'm sure I'll miss some..  Breeding females are judged in order to reproduce and come momma cows-- not in order of merchandisable calves...  merchandisable, is very broad... produce calves is straight as an arrow... 

First-- if you post a picture-- and ask for opinions.. you'd better be ready for the bad with the good.. and not be searching for "o you have a great one.. o your a stud.. o i'll give you 10--000 for tha theifer...  that's BS, grow up...

2nd-  exactly what I said.. you can't read structure if you can't see it in my cow- and I'm guessing you can't see it in your heifer either.. My cow IS STRAIGHT__ straight as shit-- but she can still hit her tracks... She lacks FLEX.  She's great for making steers- and quite honestly the only way she went undefeated at the 6 shows I took her to as a senior heifer calf-- was b/c she was so DIFFERENT-- and the shorthorns are all slab sided, and suck.

3rd.  I agree with WJ, 100%, plus 100.

4th.  Breeding females, can have too much muscle-- although there is no direct correlation b/w muscle and pelvic width.. any breeder will tell you the whale assed ones, will have problems calving, lambing, or farrowing...  TRUTH Be told...  Breeding females, need to be FEMININE=-= your heifer is not...  you heifer would be what I would call a wrestler- something like WWE's Beth Phoenix-- yes she was a prom queen.. but she's still to manly for my taste...  Now, too much muscle in steer-- is a differnt thing. 

nobody ever said not to keep her-- that the type that produce good winning steers-- not live for 15 years like heifer show champions should.. 

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Want a live one?Tyson,Ali 2, Tiny Tim(they are just that) Dirty Hairy 2 (they are a good as it gets on a first calver) Breathe Easy(-Ali on Harietta-the end all be all Who lady),Total Solution(not real big-real good,semen getting rare) Northern Improvement ETC-Want to reduce the muscle and thickness-but have a live, attractive and not very big calf,with not very much perfromance? (4-5 frame) Jakes Proud Jazz or Jakes Blue Moon. Havng read the thread about her top being up-it looks from the picture like she may have been a little sore on her left rear pastern-hock. that can come from the trailer,a slip you didnt see,or any number of things-and may not be indicative of structural problems AT ALL. Being from Va my hats off to all of you for bringing thick cattle like that after years of seeing sorry funky looking cattle that were light years behind the Mid-west beasts.YOU HAVE COME ONE HELL OF ALOT FURTHER IN 3-4 years THAN ANY OF THEM. O0

 

[kfacres]

cow, too straight for breeding heifer shows, great market heifer...  

no flex... still hits tracks...

ETA:  spend some time around hog people...  The first thing they'll tell you isn't look at how far the rear leg goes forward to see if they are sound or not.. watch how far it goes backwards.. if the hock will extend past the tailhead.. they are sound...

your heifer, although there wasn't a good picture-- looks to me like she's short hipped, which will allow for her to stride foward, and not push backwards.  The other thing, is her tailhead looks high (kinda, again not a good picture with good color contrast, or a good angle.), that usually occurs in super stout, big ended heifers, that are narrow pelvic...

 

[Haynes Livestock]

alot of points for me to cover-- but I'm sure I'll miss some..  Breeding females are judged in order to reproduce and come momma cows-- not in order of merchandisable calves...  merchandisable, is very broad... produce calves is straight as an arrow... 

First-- if you post a picture-- and ask for opinions.. you'd better be ready for the bad with the good.. and not be searching for "o you have a great one.. o your a stud.. o i'll give you 10--000 for tha theifer...  that's BS, grow up...

2nd-  exactly what I said.. you can't read structure if you can't see it in my cow- and I'm guessing you can't see it in your heifer either.. My cow IS STRAIGHT__ straight as ****-- but she can still hit her tracks... She lacks FLEX.  She's great for making steers- and quite honestly the only way she went undefeated at the 6 shows I took her to as a senior heifer calf-- was b/c she was so DIFFERENT-- and the shorthorns are all slab sided, and suck.

3rd.  I agree with WJ, 100%, plus 100.

4th.  Breeding females, can have too much muscle-- although there is no direct correlation b/w muscle and pelvic width.. any breeder will tell you the whale assed ones, will have problems calving, lambing, or farrowing...  TRUTH Be told...  Breeding females, need to be FEMININE=-= your heifer is not...  you heifer would be what I would call a wrestler- something like WWE's Beth Phoenix-- yes she was a prom queen.. but she's still to manly for my taste...  Now, too much muscle in steer-- is a differnt thing. 

nobody ever said not to keep her-- that the type that produce good winning steers-- not live for 15 years like heifer show champions should.. 

1st point- I'm not sure what I said that made you feel like I wasn't taking the opinions well? I am pleased to hear everyone's opinions. If I wanted to price her or get compliments I would have posted this in the classifieds section.
2nd point- I thought I said I honestly wasn't sure about how she flexed? I don't remember posting anything that disagreed with what you said. Sorry if it came across that way. I was saying "hey, I'm not sure about that, maybe that's what it is." I'm asking these questions because, like I said earlier, "I really just don't know." Sorry for not being as knowledgeable as you would like for me to be.
3rd point-Maybe she was hurting. I was just telling you what I saw. I'm not sure why she doesn't look like she roaches in her top in any other pictures, but that's okay. I understand. Mark may be right, she may have got hurt on the trailer, who knows.
4th point- Thank you. Now I know.

And I can see your point about the main purpose of a cow--produce calves. Good, bad, or ugly. Get live ones on the ground. It actually clears up more of my questions than anything anyone has said, so thank you.
I want you to know that I was thoroughly offended by both 1) your inability to read my posts and see that I am honestly trying to learn and 2) you telling me to grow up. If I was being immature about the situation I wouldn't use any of these posts as learning opportunities, and I sure wouldn't listen to your opinions. Not after you said that I needed to grow up. But I am taking your comments and trying to learn from them. So thank you.

 

[CMB]

I would probably get her pelvic measured. She appears too straight for "me" but you've gotta love the power and depth of body she posses. I would breed her to a high percentage calving ease bull and nothing else.

 

[Haynes Livestock]

I would probably get her pelvic measured. She appears too straight for "me" but you've gotta love the power and depth of body she posses. I would breed her to a high percentage calving ease bull and nothing else.

That's not a bad idea at all! I do agree, I wish she wasn't quite so straight. But, vet school has ruined my cattle-buying budget.. so I guess I have to give somewhere! haha

 

[mark tenenbaum]

You just keep doing what you are doing-the response you made pretty well put things in place,AND absolutely cornered your adversary with total gentility. :ITS A SOUTHERN THING. O0

 

[Haynes Livestock]

You just keep doing what you are doing-the response you made pretty well put things in place,AND absolutely cornered your adversary with total gentility. :ITS A SOUTHERN THING. O0

Thank you Mark! I just didn't appreciate someone who doesn't know me from Adam telling me to grow up when all I'm trying to do is learn. I know good and damn well that I don't have the best heifer in the world.. please. I don't have that kind of money. And I'm also not stupid enough to think that I'm going to get on here and have everyone love her. Of course there are going to be extremely honest people--isn't that what I wanted?? Ahh. It really is a southern thing isn't it? I'm offended but I'll bite my tongue like a good southern belle.. for now anyways.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

You just keep doing what you are doing-the response you made pretty well put things in place,AND absolutely cornered your adversary with total gentility. :ITS A SOUTHERN THING. O0

Thank you Mark! I just didn't appreciate someone who doesn't know me from Adam telling me to grow up when all I'm trying to do is learn. I know good and damn well that I don't have the best heifer in the world.. please. I don't have that kind of money. And I'm also not stupid enough to think that I'm going to get on here and have everyone love her. Of course there are going to be extremely honest people--isn't that what I wanted?? Ahh. It really is a southern thing isn't it? I'm offended but I'll bite my tongue like a good southern belle.. for now anyways.

/// You have the tools for some very good cattle with her-I bred up some of the awfullest big hardoing cattle you ever saw-and the most frustrating thing at least in Va-is that NO ONE would listen to me-or even talk to me-then I produced a National Champ and that made it worse. The whole point of it to me is allways lookforward to the next calf-or the next improvement to keep going forward and produce what you believe to be an excellant animal,IN YOUR EYES-That stout heavy muscled clubby female could get bred and squared up a little-and really produce something,shes got the parts naturally and,you could cut her back and still have a very attractive-AND FUEL EFFICIENT animal-Hope you are prudent breeding the first one-and truth be known-6 years ago in Iowa etc-theyd of clamored all over one that thick O0

 

[kfacres]

I don't mind coming across as an ass---  i speak what's on my mind...

The heifer has value, quite a bit of it for making steers down the road-- and maybe females if mated Angus...

I personally, wouldn't expect her to win much in breeding heifer shows-- atleast bigger one (dog)s..