Opinions on the shorthorn bull JSF GAUGE 137W?

[RyanChandler]

thanks frost back.

Breed Ave for MCE is -1.23  .. however based on that  chart it puts gauge in the 85 to 90% .  sorry I should attach the link .. but I didnt. you can see my point however that as a breed we have some work.  If you're using any thing in the "+  ... you are on the right track.  Again I would agree if you're selecting for terminal traits well I dont know If i would select this sire either??? 

or this breed...

Chandler, are you implying there are no terminal value to shorthorns??  Thats what it sounds like to me but not sure? Granted being shorthorns are a british breed, maternal function and calving ease should be the main priorities of breeders but from my experience, shorthorns are extremely profitable in the feedlot and on the rail too.  Compared to "big name" angus sires and a few black simmis my shorthorn and shorthorn x angus cattle have been the top gainers and highest net dollars critters I have marketed in the last 3-4 years. 

maternal and terminal characteristics are antagonistic by nature.  Any time you gain in one, you do so at the expense of the other.  If growth and adg are priorities,  British x British is silly imo.  Again, I'm not speaking to on the rail and quality grades but you let me select a char bull of my choice over some shorthorn females, there's no Angus or shorthorn bull that can compete with lbs per exposed.  And in the event one comes close, I guarantee you his daughters are worthless.  Shorthorn bulls need to be marketed to the commercial cattleman that's interested in retaining replacement females.

 

[aj]

I agree with xbar. You are either a maternal breed or you are goofed up breed with 2,000 pound cows trying to win wda and rate of gain contests. It is inasne to try and be everthing to everybody. The more I hear about those Charolais calves out of a maternal breed really works. They gain half a pound more and really cut well. Most Angus and Shorthorn cows are to damn big period.

 

[aandtcattle]

thanks frost back.

Breed Ave for MCE is -1.23  .. however based on that  chart it puts gauge in the 85 to 90% .  sorry I should attach the link .. but I didnt. you can see my point however that as a breed we have some work.  If you're using any thing in the "+  ... you are on the right track.  Again I would agree if you're selecting for terminal traits well I dont know If i would select this sire either??? 

or this breed...

Chandler, are you implying there are no terminal value to shorthorns??  Thats what it sounds like to me but not sure? Granted being shorthorns are a british breed, maternal function and calving ease should be the main priorities of breeders but from my experience, shorthorns are extremely profitable in the feedlot and on the rail too.  Compared to "big name" angus sires and a few black simmis my shorthorn and shorthorn x angus cattle have been the top gainers and highest net dollars critters I have marketed in the last 3-4 years. 

maternal and terminal characteristics are antagonistic by nature.  Any time you gain in one, you do so at the expense of the other.  If growth and adg are priorities,  British x British is silly imo.  Again, I'm not speaking to on the rail and quality grades but you let me select a char bull of my choice over some shorthorn females, there's no Angus or shorthorn bull that can compete with lbs per exposed.  And in the event one comes close, I guarantee you his daughters are worthless.  Shorthorn bulls need to be marketed to the commercial cattleman that's interested in retaining replacement females.

Obviously you have had a better charolais experience than I have had.  (lol) When I was managing a large commercial angus outfit I had the neighbors char bull get in for a few days towards the end of the breeding season.  Thank goodness he didnt get many bred.  I had to pull nearly every one of those big grey buggers, then they layed around and wanted to die for 2 or 3 days.  Id rather be beat with a chunk of barbed wire than calve a bunch of cows bred char!  Yes, the char sired calves grew very well after I babied em and coddled em thru the first week.  Was it worth the added pounds? No!  Who has time for that crap when youre running 450 cows?  Then in the end, they didnt marble worth a damn and really didnt show any significant advantages in REA or carcass weight.
When I have shorthorn sired calf feds that gain 4.4/day on the whole group and go 90%+ choice and prime with 6% YG 4's AND a pasture full of heifer mates that will make tremendous cows, I refuse to go down the continental path, Charolais or otherwise.

 

[aandtcattle]

Yes, I realize the previous post was off topic, didnt mean to hijack this thread.

 

[aj]

I talked to some Texans that made it work with the charolais. I thought they had really worked on getting calving ease under controll but I don't know. They were one of the first exotics imported in and I think there was some cow killers out there.

 

[Mill Iron A]

That is a poor measurement of a breed.... I've bred up shorthorn and they never bred back so I guess that's equivalent.  I have now been pointed towards some operations that prove otherwise but that is a different story.  Charolais can calve easy and get up quickly but I'm not going to say the mainstream genetics are responsible.  HooDoo Ranch calves out over 2000 head and they were obviously charolais.  So in terms of big cow outfits I think quite a few use charolais genetics.  You just have to be cognizant of the genetics within that particluar breed.

 

[aandtcattle]

That is a poor measurement of a breed.... I've bred up shorthorn and they never bred back so I guess that's equivalent.  I have now been pointed towards some operations that prove otherwise but that is a different story.  Charolais can calve easy and get up quickly but I'm not going to say the mainstream genetics are responsible.  HooDoo Ranch calves out over 2000 head and they were obviously charolais.  So in terms of big cow outfits I think quite a few use charolais genetics.  You just have to be cognizant of the genetics within that particluar breed.

Yeah, it probably is a poor measurement of a breed, but thats my experience with them.  I have heard a lot of people bitch about charolais at calving time but I try to keep my posts on here limited to personal experience. 
Sorry to hear about your bad luck with shorthorns, may I ask what bloodlines didnt work out so good for you?  Maine influenced possibly??
I forgot about HooDoo when I made my original post.  Thats a good outfit! I love the type and kind of buckskins they produce up there!  Dont know much about the carcass end of those cattle.  But I am sure those are some of the most functional, easy doing chars out there.  If I remember correctly, they were using a lot of red angus genetics there at HooDoo a few years ago, think I read it in an article somewhere.  Are they using Red Angus to supply a little more calving ease into the deal??  Dont know, just thinking out loud.

 

[Mill Iron A]

Sin City and Phildon something maybe with an X.  I haven't asked why they are using a lot of red bulls but they aren't transitioning completely I don't think.  Used a hoodoo bull that gave us 75-85 lb bw so not bad really.

 

[kfacres]

Sin City and Phildon something maybe with an X.  I haven't asked why they are using a lot of red bulls but they aren't transitioning completely I don't think.  Used a hoodoo bull that gave us 75-85 lb bw so not bad really.

phildon xs  the highest BW EPD of the breed as far as I know.  Both bulls IMO have plenty lacking in good qualities.

On the opposite note: I do get quite tired of the purest knocking the Maine injectors.  The Maine influence, like all new things- goes overboard.  Some of what gets used is good and does quite a bit of good- but most are only used b/c they are new and everyone else is doing the same thing.

 

[RyanChandler]

I talked to some Texans that made it work with the charolais. I thought they had really worked on getting calving ease under controll but I don't know. They were one of the first exotics imported in and I think there was some cow killers out there.

Of course they work.  Charolais are the premier terminal breed and there are countless carcass and ultrasound results to support this.  Do I want to keep replacements out of them?... No, but we're talking about ww lbs - the #1 concern of commercial cattleman.  Check out the AICAs carcass evaluation program.  There's not any shorthorn bulls (that I know of) that can compete for growth w/ those trait leaders.  When you leave lbs on the table, you leave $ on the table.  Shorthorns roll in the equation should be functional momma cows that can provide enough milk to enable the char x calf's growth potential.

 

[aj]

Charolais makes sense as a terminal deal.

 

[Duncraggan]

First calf hit the ground Friday!  Small but vigorous bull calf, 27kg(59lbs).  Dam's Shadybrook Scotty 83K heifer calf last year was 30kg(66lbs).
Predominantly red, small white spot on the head and lower flank.
At 60% conception, my average synchronization rate, should have another 12-15 on the way.
Will keep you all posted!

 

[Okotoks]

Luke Bowman posted an awesome video of Gauge at Byland on Facebook. I don't know how to post it here. About as good a looking bull as you will see walking a pasture! (thumbsup)

 

[Duncraggan]

I am a techno-dinosaur!  My wife is on FB and she kept on touching the screen of my laptop to access her FB on my behalf to see the clip!

Both clips bring a smile to my face, he is beautifully slick coated, on top of his ever improving CEZ values!  I should have taken more than the 30 doses I took!  I hope he is still available in South Africa when I have assessed all his spring 2013 calves.  I will have a few due in autumn 2014 as well.

The dam of my first 137W calf has a 2011 Spry's All Gold D052 bull calf on my Bull Sale in early September so I hope her 2013 bull calf will be a keeper as well!

 

[Duncraggan]

First ten calves have averaged 33kg (73lbs), high 41kg (90lbs) and low 24kg (53lbs).

Ironically, the smallest needed help due to a foreleg back!  Rest have been unasssisted.

Two roans and a fairly 'loud' red and white, the rest have been red.

Should be a few more yet.

 

[Duncraggan]

Final total of 14 Spring calves, seven of each.

The average birthweight has increased slightly to 34kg (75lbs), the later calves are slightly higher birthweight.

My conclusion is that EPD's of low accuracy are precisely that!

 

[Duncraggan]

Here are two Gauge bull calves, picture taken yesterday.  On their 100-day test the one on the left indexed 112 and the one on the right 109.  Their dams are next to them, left and right respectively.
I am a bit disappointed with the bull I chose, centre, to go with this herd of cows!

 

[Hilltop]

Here are two Gauge bull calves, picture taken yesterday.  On their 100-day test the one on the left indexed 112 and the one on the right 109.  Their dams are next to them, left and right respectively.
I am a bit disappointed with the bull I chose, centre, to go with this herd of cows!

So will you or have you used him again? The 75lb BW average is a bonus if the calves have some grow to them.

After we seen a short video of Gauge on pasture at Byland this summer that Luke Bowman had taken, we decided that red or not not LOL we were going to use him. Select sires only had 5 straws left from him here in Canada so we will be flushing our Winegum cow to him. She has worked very well so far with 3 different bulls so we really think this mating will click also.

Anyone else have any more comments on his progeny?

 

[Duncraggan]

Used last six doses for Autumn 2014, starting about beginning February if I remember correctly.  I hope Select Sires has more available!  I always thought they did semen sales in huge volumes and was not too concerned about continued availability.
Anyway, the fact that the bull sold out may spur them into getting a wider variety of commercially orientated Shorthorn bulls to choose from.
It certainly won't hurt us in the longer term!
Nice female you have there (thumbsup)

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Here are two Gauge bull calves, picture taken yesterday.  On their 100-day test the one on the left indexed 112 and the one on the right 109.  Their dams are next to them, left and right respectively.
I am a bit disappointed with the bull I chose, centre, to go with this herd of cows!

How come you are disappointed in that bull? What is he? Looks like his sheath may be a bit loose but he looks ok to me.