"Outcross" Shorthorn bulls

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OKshorthorn

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I was looking at some AI bulls and ran across this. I thought it was pretty funny to see their promotion of "outcross" genetics!! It's a vicious circle

SS Kaboom

"Proven, outcross pedigree with Sonny and Dunbeacon Venture Sires calves who are balanced, eye-appealing with attractive phenotypes A massive bull with excellent depth and thickness throughout Tested TH and PHA Free"
 

OKshorthorn

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My post wasnt to beat a dead horse...I just found it interesting that when Kaboom was born in 2001, he was promoted as being an outcross sire to the current genetics, although he is out of Sonny and Dunbeacon Venture, who ironically are now what most in the shorthorn world are wanting an outcross from.
 

aj

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It seems the truth is trying to shut down discussions. And he - or she apparently dislikes jpj. Its called "muddying the waters". Its called bumper sticker type discussions. I personally like to see outcross herds developed out there. Like a and t . Like sjcattle and his gismo lines. But its not what the cool kids do.
 

feeder duck

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  JJC Wild Side.  He is absolutely no Double Stuff, Trump, or anything Sullivan bred in his pedigree. Pedigree goes back to Petro 2 and Steermaker.  Daughters are making awesome steer momma cows. A must in a time when current shorthorn bulls have killed the shorthorn steer market. We have them bred back to a Jakes Proud Jazz son out of a D. Vision cow.
 

kfacres

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aj said:
It seems the truth is trying to shut down discussions. And he - or she apparently dislikes jpj. Its called "muddying the waters". Its called bumper sticker type discussions. I personally like to see outcross herds developed out there. Like a and t . Like sjcattle and his gismo lines. But its not what the cool kids do.

NO actually what I am saying is that the shorthorn breed promotes everything as "outcross"  read every bull book, and description out there, it happens all the time.  It's this bull who's the great one.  I've heard Vortec as being called outcross, JPJ, Venture, Gizmo, and especially older pedigreed bulls.  These bull's aren't true outcross, but they are a little different pedigreed than the norm.  
I guess one way to look at it, is that anything that's a Shorthorn that doesn't possess Trump- is outcross.  But on the otherhand, what does it really take to become "outcross"?  I mean what's not in and popular to one person, might make up 99% of the herd for someone else.  I can speak for myself (and one other shorthorn breeder for sure) and say that Trump and his decendants would be outcross to our herds- I've never owned a cow that has him in there.. good, bad, or just stupid.  how many Shorthorn breeders out there can say that?  I just don't like those Trumps.  

I wish I had a bumper sticker that said

"The Pot that called the kettle black- and then argued until they turned blue".  I remember when I was in my teens... and argued with my parents!
 

shortyjock89

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So what would you call outcross? When Proud Jazz came out, he was what I would call Outcross.  I would call Gizmo outcross too, even though he's got two shots of Improver 3rd in his pedigree. At least, these are outcross to my herd.  Also, I don't know of a lot of TRUE outcross bulls that I would have much interest in using.  I've tried hard to keep the Trump/Vortec/Double Vision influence at a moderate level in our herd so we can use some of these more "popular" bulls and not stack too much in one pedigree.  We've got an AoD X Venture heifer bred to Gus...is this somewhat outcross?  It certainly is if you mean an outcross to trump or any real clubby lines.  We've also got a JPJ x DSF Queen bred to OFS Magic Jack, outcross?  I don't really know, I just like to think we use something a little different than most.  Oh, and we've also got a Wild Side x Wooly Bully bred to our Ace High x Sonny bull. Not super outcross, but different for sure.  I do have to say though, that we've been doing this so when we do finally use a bull from the "in" crowd, we have something to offer on the bottom side of the pedigree that doesn't read the same as everyone else's and we can get the most out of heterosis within the breed.


Sorry for my relative novel, but I like this topic.
 

aj

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First of all define outcross. If you are a bible beater you believe in Noahs ark. Noah had 2 shorthorns on the ark. No other Shorthorns survived the flood. All Shorthorns came from these original bull and heifer. Nothing is an outcross to them. even 4,000 years later. Or do the same pedigree search to cattle from England or whatever. Everything should go back to these cattle? Its a matter of how far out you want to go to define outcross. 10 generations? 40 generations? 400 generations. Or you can talk about the bos taurus species also I guess instead of a breed. Also. There have been studies of human skeletons in North America and south Amercia. They do teeth studies,language studies,dna studies, and radio carbon dating to study the human mygration to the new world from the old world. The sciencetists are talking about 400 generations that may have existed in North America before the currently thought to be red skinned native America. The Shorthorn breed doesn't promote  everything as an outcross. Different breeders that make up the Shorthorn breed might. Please get away from bumpersticker phrases. Define outcross in your premise. I would think trump could be considered a outcross to the Shorthorn breed cause he was sired by cd who was sired by Cunia who was a MAINE ANJOU. The maines and shorties have similar genetics from way back.I would think that if you get out 6 generations from a said bull you are getting out there a ways to where one could begin to argue outcross. WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF OUTCROSS?
 

mark tenenbaum

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 There is no such thing as an outross-although I personally am going to breed what little I have left-which are Kansas -fullblood maine shorthorn etc-to a little Canadian. All this broo ha ha about Trump and the rest is like a broken record-so are the cattle-so are the BWS-and I raised the MAX part of MAX ROSA and that whole deal, never said a word-etc.I do think there are cattle somewhat removed from the so-called mainstream-they are not cow killers and have decent EPDS-now I like em real stout-and the rest of mine are going Charolais x (sahara) Smilen BOB etc. Heres some clean -THICK Shorts that work clubby-or in general- GB Daybreak Express, Elbees Wymore Bull. FREE FOR ALL.(his owners are way too  important to acknowledge me-hes still way good),Arsulu Osage-(check Kourthause in Iowa-he works) DRM MICKY( by far the best Sonny son  to ever breed a cow) ALM SURF-calving ease-ALM CHILLER-second best Sonny EVER-JF Perfect Image-calving ease SUPREME-full sib to the 1938(cant be right) champ steer overall OKLA State fair-(Darlee had a bunch of good ones-sod Wendall Dunn and Kris Black) , CSF Dextro-maybe the thickest calving ease deal of the 90s-long as they were fairly level pins to hooks,and a bunch of the Canadian bulls (which oughta go on clubbies JMO) Jits Touchdown bull, ULURU s Buster that B-Good (super good person) has,and one or two from Diamond etc that are in the works-DONT FORGET TREVORS BULL COMING UP FOR SALE_DUDES GONNA WORK ON THE STOUT ONES.Well-theres a couple-Im sure I missed 50-60-at least everybosdy is clean PS_IVE GOT ONE COMING TOO_OUT OF MY CUMBERLAND DONER hint hint. O0
 

knabe

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if there is no depression and none anticipated, what is the function of an outcross?

why would one even want it if all you'll get is hybrid vigor and then depression?

it seems to me stability is the most important trait.

if one uses an outcross to address something missing or having too much of, how long does it take to get rid of the other stuff that wasn't wanted from the outcross?

if one had absolutely no trump, trump would be an outcross.  what would trump add to an average good cow herd that would be needed, a name on a registration?
 

mark tenenbaum

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knabe said:
if there is no depression and none anticipated, what is the function of an outcross?

why would one even want it if all you'll get is hybrid vigor and then depression?

it seems to me stability is the most important trait.

if one uses an outcross to address something missing or having too much of, how long does it take to get rid of the other stuff that wasn't wanted from the outcross?

if one had absolutely no trump, trump would be an outcross.  what would trump add to an average good cow herd that would be needed, a name on a registration?//// SORRY DUDE ITS REAL SIMPLE-WHEN IT COMES TO SHORTHORNS-ITS PTRETTY MUCH CUNIA AND DIVIDEND AND SOME OLD COW KILLER CHI-IN THE FINAL EQUATION-WHY GO THROUGH THE AGONY ??? O0
 

aj

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I have heard that there is a mistake on 10% of papers as far as pedigrees are concerned. Whether its a neighbors bull jumping a fence, reading the name on the straw wrong or an intentional tricky dickie deal.
 

kfacres

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Olson Family Shorthorns said:
So what would you call outcross? When Proud Jazz came out, he was what I would call Outcross.  I would call Gizmo outcross too, even though he's got two shots of Improver 3rd in his pedigree. At least, these are outcross to my herd.  Also, I don't know of a lot of TRUE outcross bulls that I would have much interest in using.  I've tried hard to keep the Trump/Vortec/Double Vision influence at a moderate level in our herd so we can use some of these more "popular" bulls and not stack too much in one pedigree.  We've got an AoD X Venture heifer bred to Gus...is this somewhat outcross?  It certainly is if you mean an outcross to trump or any real clubby lines.  We've also got a JPJ x DSF Queen bred to OFS Magic Jack, outcross?  I don't really know, I just like to think we use something a little different than most.  Oh, and we've also got a Wild Side x Wooly Bully bred to our Ace High x Sonny bull. Not super outcross, but different for sure.  I do have to say though, that we've been doing this so when we do finally use a bull from the "in" crowd, we have something to offer on the bottom side of the pedigree that doesn't read the same as everyone else's and we can get the most out of heterosis within the breed.
Sorry for my relative novel, but I like this topic.

If I am correct, JPJ posses the same Irish influence that Double Stuff has- (son of Irish Pride) two times in his pedigree, one on both the top and on the bottom.  His mother is a granddaughter, as well as his sire's dam also being a granddaughter.  Yes this is mostly outcross, but to me, I'm not sure that's a 'true' outcross bull- to any operation with DS prevalent.  This is purely off of memory, as at this time, I cannot get onto the shorthorn search page.  
I agree with you saying that their aren't very many "outcross" bulls out there that I would want to use either- unless you import something, or use an appendix bred bull.  In our herd, we are also trying to minimize the amounts of the "in" pedigrees.  I try to think outside the box as well.  The following reg number is a cow that has a very strong influence in our shorthorn herd-- x- 4110091- RS VICTORY STAR (AKA SWEET PEA AROUND HERE).  I bet there isn't much in that pedigree than anyone has ever heard of- for at least 5 generations.  Of course, there will be Steermaker, the Improver/ Dividend bloodlines, and some other Maine pedigrees back there. I have always strayed away from the Trump influence in our herd, and other than a bull that we are currently leasing (for cleanup) that has one trace of Trump 5 generations away, (but do not own and will be leaving quite quickly)- have never owned, or used a Shorthorn prospect with Trump in it's pedigree.  We did try out a Vortec grandson last year, (Wildside son from Jeff)- and were very high on him until hid nuts gave out and we shipped him last month.  His fall calves that we have right now are very nice.  I would probably consider Vortec another of the mostly ‘outcross’ bulls likewise to Wildside being one.  We also have one Kool daughter, that traces back to CCS Shoshone, CF Ideal and Improver 57—these I would consider at the least more “outcross” pedigrees due to plenty of appendix blood held within, or perhaps more outdated pedigrees with the Improver in there.  

Now keep in mind that our Shorthorn herd is down to 4 mature cows of beef decent, as most of our current day herd is either commercial Angus based, or dual purpose Shorthorn (35-40 old cows/ 15-20 heifers without counting it up) (I'd say they are "OUTCROSS".  We do have a ton (not really) of Shorthorn heifer calves that we are keeping back, but for the most part- they also trace to this same cow family as mentioned above.  I will be first to say that we have used, and possess quite a bit of the Double Stuff (DV/ XRay, etc) bloodlines in our herd- as I have always been a fan of his- even though he is double dirty- and we have been more geared towards producing steers; rather than heifers.  So I guess anything honestly that doesn’t have DS, or something of the same held within… is mostly outcross to our herd.  Will that be the case for all.. Most def not all…Find me a "true" outcross herd out there!  Most recently, we have been using quite a bit of Red Angus/ Durham Red blood in our cow herd.  This I would say is outcross to most as well.  

Now I can say, that I think I’m in the process of getting a “real” shorthorn bull on the place, that is a stud.. But can’t say more than that, as details isn’t worked out yet.  

What do I call OUTCROSS__  I DON”T THINK THERE IS ONE>> much like Mark T has already said…  I also agree with knabe in his comments..  thinking outside the box?!
 

GM

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OKshorthorns, it's interesting to see how the term outcross is used in Shorthorn Country advertisements.  I don't know what the rule of thumb is for "outcross", but based on what I see people labeling as outcross my assumption is that they mean there are no common ancestors up close in the pedigree...say five generations.  It would be interesting to calculate the average COI of a herd, or have some way to calculate COI on pedigrees (without doing it by hand).  The only true outcross would be a different breed (which could be the case in some of the Shorthorn bulls promoted over the last 30 years lol).  There are also herds out there with cattle that don't have common ancestors to Trump, Dividend, Rodeo Drive, etc even if you go back even 10 - 15 generations...that seems very outcross, but i'm not a genetics expert.  Off hand I'm thinking of some of the Canadian or Australian herds, Albaugh Ranch, Sindelar, Haumont, Lucky Clover perhaps...I know I'm missing a lot, and I'm sure some of the more informed shorty breeders on here could add/delete more to that list. 
 

knabe

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if someone had 10% COI, would anyone be concerned?

here's the only COI calculator i know of online.  unfortunately, it doesn't let you store what you've typed.  i think it will do up to 13 generations.  i used to have someone calculate them till i got bored and couldn't get anything above 5% except for a couple of animals and certainly hardly anything that wasn't something like father daughter/half sib matings which almost no one maintains that i know of.

http://www.czerwonytrop.com/inb/index.php?full=ok&lng=pl

as much as everyone is seems to be concerned about it, it really isn't an issue. 

much like everyone gets scared of causes of death that are rare, but does nothing about death that is common and takes massive risk, ie driving cars.
 

aj

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I think initially people advertised outcross to Doublestuffs because of the th factor. That was the first time I'd seen the term outcross used in a long time. There was a time when th was a mystery. Then it became a secret. Then it became pretty well explained. I know that everybody blamed the maine influence for a long time till it was known it went back to the old Improver bull.
 

Okotoks

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I personally think you would use an outcross to introduce a bloodline to your herd that complements your breeding or improves a trait. It might be a bull that will improve the udders, improve calving ease, increase marbling etc. without taking away from the traits you want to maintain. We are fortunate today in that we can test for genetic defects without playing Russian Roulette with our breeding programs. We can also utilize EPD's with our selection process.
I guess the big question for each breeder is why do they think they need an "outcross"?

The following is from Wikipedia.
Outcrossing
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Outcrossing is the practice of introducing unrelated genetic material into a breeding line. It increases genetic diversity, thus reducing the probability of all individuals being subject to disease or reducing genetic abnormalities(only within the first generation). It actually can serve to increase the number of individuals who carry a disease recessively.[1]

It is used in line-breeding to restore vigor or size and fertility to a breeding line. "Line-breeding", is where animals carry a common ancestor in their pedigrees and are bred together, should be considered distinct from the term "in-breeding" which is the production of offspring by parents more closely related than the average.[2]

Outcrossing is now the norm of most purposeful breeding, contrary to what is commonly believed.[3][4][5][6] The outcrossing breeder intends to remove the traits by using "new blood". With dominant traits, one can still see the expression of the traits and can remove those traits whether one outcrosses, line breeds or inbreds. With recessives, outcrossing allows for the recessive traits to migrate across a population. It may actually increase the number of individuals carrying a disease. The outcrossing breeder then may have individuals that have many deleterious genes that are expressed by placing their animals against a similarly outcrossed individual. There is now a gamut of deleterious genes within each individual in many breeds.[7] However one may increase the variance of genes within the gene pool by outcrossing, protecting against extinction by a single stressor from the environment. In cats, there is currently a study running to determine the genetic diversity within the cat breeds.[8]

Outcrossing is believed to be the "norm" in the wild.[7] However, it is not logical as migration occurs by necessity. Feral cats, for example are one of the most inbred as individuals remain nearby their original homes, unless environmental stresses drive them to migration.[citation needed]

Breeders inbreed within their genetic pool, attempting to maintain desirable traits and to cull those traits that are undesirable. When undesirable traits begin to appear, breedings are selected to determine if a trait is recessive or dominant. Removal is accomplished by breeding two individuals of known genetic status, usually they are related.[9]

In nature, where breeding is not managed, outcrossing rates may be estimated by genetic analysis, by employing mathematical models of mating systems such as the mixed mating model or the effective selfing model. This allows calculation of the amount of genetic exchange between populations, and thus provides insights into the biogeography and phytogeography of species.

Gregor Mendel used outcrossing in his experiments with flowers for his breeding stock. He then used the resulting offspring to chart inheritance patterns, using the crossing of siblings, and backcrossing to parents to determine how inheritance functioned.[1]

[edit] See also
Heterosis
Outbreeding depression
[edit] References
^ a b Mendel's Paper (English - Annotated)
^ Guy Fawkes Horses Retrieved on 2009-8-1
^ Cat Fanciers: American Curl: Cat Breed FAQ
^ The Balinese Cat in the UK
^ Inbreeding: A Personal Point of View
^ Outcrossing in hunting dogs
^ a b Price
^ http://faculty.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/Faculty/lalyons/Sites/FIS.htm
^ Genetic Defects and the Effects of Inbreeding
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outcrossing"
 
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