Potential calving problem help

[Belties R Us]

So we have a first calf heifer (bred to a calving ease Simmental bull) who has been in labor for a while now. Have seen the calves feet for about an hour and forty minutes. It hasen't progressed since that point. When should we be concerned? The cow is wild so dad doesn't want to mess with her but I believe there is cause for concern. Any ideas for restraining? She is in a stall and acts like she wants to jump out the window if we open the gate.

****Note: I am not at home I am just trying to give my family some advise to get this problem taken care of. 

 

[FriedgesCharolais]

Pull

 

[DakotaCow]

Time to pull.

 

[AndersenClubCalves]

If she were mine I would be looking for the chains and the puller. I would rather get them pulled while shes still got some energy to push. An hour and forty minutes is a long time to not see any progress.  We stick commercial cows in the chute and pull them all the time just a head catch would work better if you got it.  Good Luck...

 

[5PCC]

I always give assistance if the presenting body part (hopefully the legs) have been visible for more than 30 minutes with no progress. Early intervention is best delivering a live calf and maintaining future reproductive performance of the heifer or cow. At this point, the momma is probably pretty fatigued. We have pulled calves in all kinds of situations, including putting a lasso on one in the middle of a pasture. My next suggestion would be to sell her if she is wild! Good luck!

 

[Belties R Us]

Update: Vets have been called.  Waiting on a call back. Worried that the head may be turned back. The angus cow is on the small side. We have never had calving problems before so are not too sure how to pull one. Dad said one foot is visible and two when she is pushing. Thank you all for your advise!

 

[Belties R Us]

Final Update: Heifer calf born dead with vet help . Heifer is too small to deliver calves unassisted (according to vet) and he recommends that we ship her.

 

[knabe]

Listen to the vet.


Going on limited info, first calf heifers owned by people who cant pull a calf  without vet help need true calving ease bulls.


I once used a semi calving ease bull that was plus 3.2 lbs and he ended up being plus 35 on cows.


I cant believe there is a sure fire calving ease sim on heifers. There might be, but i would be nervous.


Somewhere along the way, continentals were forced to delay the age when heifers were bred and this was a mistake. I think europeans liked bulls that had more masculinity than their men.

 

[Belties R Us]

Listen to the vet.


Going on limited info, first calf heifers owned by people who cant pull a calf  without vet help need true calving ease bulls.


I once used a semi calving ease bull that was plus 3.2 lbs and he ended up being plus 35 on cows.


I cant believe there is a sure fire calving ease sim on heifers. There might be, but i would be nervous.


Somewhere along the way, continentals were forced to delay the age when heifers were bred and this was a mistake. I think europeans liked bulls that had more masculinity than their men.

It's definitely going to be a consideration. The debate we are having is the heifer is an embryo transfer calf with a very good pedigree. For a purebred angus she is pretty stout and big boned too. We have quite a lot invested in her. But we definitely don't have the experience to pull calves. This is the first ever calving problem we have had. Only own four head. I know part of the family is interested in lowlines so that I guess could be an option but I personally am not a fan.

 

[knabe]

Clarify please.  You have an ET angus heifer you used a simi calving ease bull on?

 

[cowpoke]

50+ years of calving cows tells me 2 hours after water bag appears and no progress is time to find out if you have a problem.Backwards,legs back,head back,too big can all be handled.The best vet cant help if not called.It usually takes the same amount of time to deliver a live calf as a dead one and you feel a lot better.C-sections can be the only option and results can be fine if started early..Real cattlemen don't let nature take its course and the one time you decide everything is fine and don't check them something will go wrong.You only get one chance a year.The above knowledge was not learned at a grooming clinic.

 

[Belties R Us]

Clarify please.  You have an ET angus heifer you used a simi calving ease bull on?

Correct. The angus heifer is out of an Erica 814G cow to the Duff New Edition bull and we figured she would be a great foundational base to our herd. She is just 6" shorter than anything else we own. I have no good pictures or I would post some. The Sim bull was recommended to us because he was low birth and high growth and we were concerned that the calf would stay small like the dam. So that was the hopeful solution. Obviously it didn't work. We have had no calving problems before so this part is all new to us.

 

[Belties R Us]

50+ years of calving cows tells me 2 hours after water bag appears and no progress is time to find out if you have a problem.Backwards,legs back,head back,too big can all be handled.The best vet cant help if not called.It usually takes the same amount of time to deliver a live calf as a dead one and you feel a lot better.C-sections can be the only option and results can be fine if started early..Real cattlemen don't let nature take its course and the one time you decide everything is fine and don't check them something will go wrong.You only get one chance a year.The above knowledge was not learned at a grooming clinic.

And I also agree. We should have stepped in much sooner and we probably won't have a dead calf on our hands now.

 

[jbzdad]

do you have a grooming chute? probably could have pulled it there... Do you have a set of pullers?one of the "calving pens" would have saved you... they have gates that you can swing to get the cow in the headgate... I have a priefert headgate I just took off my equipment that I can't sell.... if you mount that on a couple of posts with the appropriate gates to bring her in you could get by with that... I did for years

find some "cowboy " friends they will be happy to help you get fixed up... PM me if you need anything

the only way to dodge bad situations is experience.. the way to get experience is to fight through bad situations

 

[nate53]

My opinion.  If you have a valuable angus heifer ( in future), never breed her to anything but angus (proven low birthweight, high CED epd) bull.  That hybrid vigor adds some lbs at birth.  Not saying there would not potentially be a problem still (there always is especially with heifers), but the odds are stacked more in your favor. 

It's easy to say, hey you should have done this or that, but the main thing is to learn from the mistakes. (as many as I've made, I should be an expert by now) 

Has she always been crazy or just because she was having trouble calving?  Good Luck with what you all decide to do with her.

 

[cowpoke]

A simple pelvic measurement would have made things easier for you and a proven easy calving bull.You used the terms a lot invested, stout and big boned and 6 in shorter than the other cows.Too many big boned ,small framed,stout heifers ,should have been steers or market heifers.Feminine with a correct muscle pattern which is not always popular in the show ring[ depending on judge]works better in the real world.The Simmental breed has very few calving ease sires. [70#s] with high growth.We bought 3 Sim/Ang heifers from  Canada bred to easy calving Angus bulls and pulled two with one C-Sec saved all three but not one was under 105#s[C-Sec was 130#] and all were around 3 weeks overdue[not really] and the bull calves were nice but not 3/4 Angus.Some of the good breeders wont allow heifers with a small pelvis and ship them no matter how fancy they are.Some times lessons learned make the road traveled a lot easier.Good Luck

 

[BTDT]

Yes, it is easy to say "should've"  but take these words of wisdom from someone who has been there and done that:

1. Her attitude alone would be her trailer ticket on my farm. I do not tolerate bad behavior. Period.
        - No heifer/cow/calf is worth getting injured over. I do not care how "good" they are.
        - Wild animals destroy equipment/fences. Again, the animal is not that "good".
        - If you can not properly handle livestock, the end result is dead critters, as you have experienced. If she was easy to handle, I venture to guess you would have intervened early, thus resulting in a live calf.
2. Hybrid vigor is in utero as well as post utero.
3. Keep in mind calf SHAPE as well as birth weight. Pelvic measurements help, but are not the perfect answer.

Make this a life lesson and learn from your mistake. Remember, insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.
Adjust your management decisions and you will be fine. It is all part of a learning curve.

 

[Belties R Us]

My opinion.  If you have a valuable angus heifer ( in future), never breed her to anything but angus (proven low birthweight, high CED epd) bull.  That hybrid vigor adds some lbs at birth.  Not saying there would not potentially be a problem still (there always is especially with heifers), but the odds are stacked more in your favor. 

It's easy to say, hey you should have done this or that, but the main thing is to learn from the mistakes. (as many as I've made, I should be an expert by now) 

Has she always been crazy or just because she was having trouble calving?  Good Luck with what you all decide to do with her.

I don't think she is crazy just isn't used to being handled closely by people. She wasn't halterbroken as a calf because she wasn't going to make something worth showing. She just came back from pasture about 6 months ago and the most people exposure she gets is getting fed twice a day.

do you have a grooming chute? probably could have pulled it there... Do you have a set of pullers?one of the "calving pens" would have saved you... they have gates that you can swing to get the cow in the headgate... I have a priefert headgate I just took off my equipment that I can't sell.... if you mount that on a couple of posts with the appropriate gates to bring her in you could get by with that... I did for years

find some "cowboy " friends they will be happy to help you get fixed up... PM me if you need anything

the only way to dodge bad situations is experience.. the way to get experience is to fight through bad situations

We have a grooming and a working chute (not set up well as in it has no alley way. Up to this point we have lead all our cattle to it) so it was really our inexperience that was the issue. I PMed you as well. I will probably not choose to breed to a simmental again but our other first calf heifer is bred to the same bull. So now we just have to work to not let it happen again.

A simple pelvic measurement would have made things easier for you and a proven easy calving bull.You used the terms a lot invested, stout and big boned and 6 in shorter than the other cows.Too many big boned ,small framed,stout heifers ,should have been steers or market heifers.Feminine with a correct muscle pattern which is not always popular in the show ring[ depending on judge]works better in the real world.The Simmental breed has very few calving ease sires. [70#s] with high growth.We bought 3 Sim/Ang heifers from  Canada bred to easy calving Angus bulls and pulled two with one C-Sec saved all three but not one was under 105#s[C-Sec was 130#] and all were around 3 weeks overdue[not really] and the bull calves were nice but not 3/4 Angus.Some of the good breeders wont allow heifers with a small pelvis and ship them no matter how fancy they are.Some times lessons learned make the road traveled a lot easier.Good Luck

We will definitely do this in the future!! Thank you! Is there somewhere to get the range of acceptable pelvic measurements?

Yes, it is easy to say "should've"  but take these words of wisdom from someone who has been there and done that:

1. Her attitude alone would be her trailer ticket on my farm. I do not tolerate bad behavior. Period.
        - No heifer/cow/calf is worth getting injured over. I do not care how "good" they are.
        - Wild animals destroy equipment/fences. Again, the animal is not that "good".
        - If you can not properly handle livestock, the end result is dead critters, as you have experienced. If she was easy to handle, I venture to guess you would have intervened early, thus resulting in a live calf.
2. Hybrid vigor is in utero as well as post utero.
3. Keep in mind calf SHAPE as well as birth weight. Pelvic measurements help, but are not the perfect answer.

Make this a life lesson and learn from your mistake. Remember, insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.
Adjust your management decisions and you will be fine. It is all part of a learning curve.

Ok thank you and we will do so!

 

[GoWyo]

If you don't have a chute, a couple of lariats, a horse halter and a stout post are all that is needed to restrain a non-gentle for calving.  Your vet must have worked out a way to do it?  The Duff sires generally have very low Maternal Calving Ease EPDs, which would indicate to breed to something low birth weight and shaped like a snake.

 

[CAB]

IDK but there sure seems to be some preaching going on here to  family that is just beginning to learn as we all did in days gone by. If your heifer / cow is not halter broke I would suggest not using a fitting chute to pull calves in. It'll not take that kind of pressure and you'll possibly be fixing your chute. I think that if you like your heifer talk to a larger semen distributor and pick a very high CE Angus or Red Angus bull with very high ACC. %. Forget the show calf part of the equation for the next calf. Let her grow some more. Most of us have been where you are at one time or another and most of us will be in situations that we don't especially care for again. Still learning & in some cases forgetting what I should have remembered.