Setting up donars

[jbw]

I was just wondering if there is any data on success of embryo transfer using the same protocol for the donors and the recip. cow. For example, if the donor cow was set up using lut., should the recip. be set up the same way?  Would the % be better? If the donor is flushed off a natural cycle, would it be better to use recips that are on a 'natural' cycle?  And, say the donor was set up using lut, would there be a difference setting up the recips using lut vs. estramate?  Did not know if there has been any study done on this.

 

[Cowboy]

The donors here in my care are flushed off of natura lheats ONLY. We only use Estrumate during the shot process for the donor and any recips needed.

UNfortunately -- cyncronizing recipients is a nesseccary thing in order to achieve your goals of embryo transfer. So, recips are sycned - again -- using only Estrumate along with possibly as Cidr protocol.

I have never given much thought to the differences of Lut versus Estrumate -- other than I feel that Estrumate -(Synthetic prostoglandin) works more cosistently than the natural product Lutelyse -- especially for those herds who must repeatedly sync the cows.

Other than that -- of course -- any time you can use natural heats for egg transfer you are better off. The results will consistent;ly prove that to ne true. It takes fairly large numbers to see it - but it is there.

Good luck with your research -- I never induce the donors so I am not able to tell you much there -- other than thereis a reason I don't induce them, it is called RESULTS -- natural heat donors do much better -- believe me!

Terry

 

[jbw]

Thank you, I was just thinking bout the little things that add up on better success rates and did not know if these things contributed. Is there anything to the stories I have heard on flushing cows in winter, and they will take better inplanted in summer?

 

[Doc]

Cowboy, How would someone setup their recips to put eggs in fresh , if you only flush donors off of natural heats?

 

[Cowboy]

Let me clarify.

I never induce a DONOR cow to get her in heat to schedule a flush sequence. I only use a natural heat Day -0- date for the donors.

However -- in order to get your eggs transfered fresh or forzen ingroups, you MUST sync the recipients --whether it be later for frozen or at the same time for the donor's fresh embryos.

Sync programs DO work, but I always prefer never to induce a donor to get her scheduled for a flush. The natural heats produce a better CL on them, and that is paramount for good response and production of the eggs.

Any way -- that should help -- go ahead and sync your recips if needed, but I leave the donors alone -- they tell me when they are ready. A natural donor heat at the beginning will always result in a better flush later.

Best of luck to every one -- Terry

 

[LazyGLowlines]

Let me clarify.

I never induce a DONOR cow to get her in heat to schedule a flush sequence. I only use a natural heat Day -0- date for the donors.

Cowboy - Our embryologist is quite a ways from us (150 miles) and we have multiple donor cows that we'd like to flush on the same day.  Would you try to get the donors cycling at the same time first with CIDR/estromate/lute, then wait for the next natural cycle?  It's quite expensive to have only 1 flushed at a time, plus I doubt he'd come out more than once since he's so far away.  Any suggestions?

 

[knabe]

i dream of being 150 miles from cowboy.  i would just take her there if i were that close.

 

[LazyGLowlines]

i dream of being 150 miles from cowboy.  i would just take her there if i were that close.

He has no facility for cattle, so our only option is for him to come to us.

 

[Cowboy]

Lazy G -- there are of course times when no othermethod will work but to sync the donors together.

I might suggest that you do what you asked, try getting them all to cycle at once, then on thier next heat they will at least be all within a day or two of each other. When we start the donors on injections -- you can get by with using day 9 - 10 - 11 - and even 12 at the latest. The KEY is to make darn sure EVERY one has a good functioning CL - a CL that has not gotten the signal to start regression yet, or they will not work.

I never use day 8, and the only donor that I can remember having to use day 13 failed to respond to treatment.

I preffer day 11 on cows, and day 10 on a hfr (IF I ever agree to do one -- might be best you don't ask that favor -- I decline when ever possible and succeed MOST of the time to get out of it! hehe)

In your case -- your donors could cycle over a 3-4 day period on thier second heat and you could still do them all together. The beauty of having the donors as residents is this -- I never have to worry about trying to go and do 3-4 or more donors in one day. I schedule plenty of time to do the flush on time, work in the lab with no hurry. It works extremely well for me. Not that we can't do more than one, but it prevents the first eggs flushed from having to sit and wait on the last ones. There is a time frame where it gets counterproductive if they sit too long. Normally speaking, we try to have all embryos in the freezer by 2 hours from colection.

In your case, you may have to try and flush a couple -- process -- flush a couple more etc.

If you wait too long to do the flush on day 7 -- then your resulting embryos get too big -- they grow VERY fast past the day 7 time -- those at 7.5 would be about 2 grade stages older already. Easily fixed by simply starting 1/2 the cows at night, the other half start in the next morning. Flush the PM started cows first, the AM started cows last. Problem solved.

Any thing else I can do for you -- just ask -- we are slow here now so I have extra time any way -- in fact I just got in from going out for a 2 hour ride with my son, we love our Quarter Horses too!

Take care -- Terry

PS -- Hey Knabe -- as I mentioned, all you have to do is invest in Nebraska range land -- problem solved for distance! Your and every one else are most welcome here -- I can see me working for a Co-Op!! hehehe

 

[JbarL]

Lazy G -- there are of course times when no othermethod will work but to sync the donors together.

I might suggest that you do what you asked, try getting them all to cycle at once, then on thier next heat they will at least be all within a day or two of each other. When we start the donors on injections -- you can get by with using day 9 - 10 - 11 - and even 12 at the latest. The KEY is to make darn sure EVERY one has a good functioning CL - a CL that has not gotten the signal to start regression yet, or they will not work.
Any thing else I can do for you -- just ask -- we are slow here now so I have extra time any way -- in fact I just got in from going out for a 2 hour ride with my son, we love our Quarter Horses too!

Take care -- Terry

PS -- Hey Knabe -- as I mentioned, all you have to do is invest in Nebraska range land -- problem solved for distance! Your and every one else are most welcome here -- I can see me working for a Co-Op!! hehehe

timely topic for me , too...thanks  jbw  and    (welcome)...my questin is about CL  could you all bring me up to speed...the timing explaniation and process has really made the light come on here as far as understatnding the whole et and even ai theory....( strickly a bull bred guy ....up untill now???)  but i dont know what you are calling CT.... ))...and its natural stage and/or  induced conditions involved ?  thanks in advance......jbarl

 

[Cowboy]

JbarL -- in a rather large NUT SHELL - hehehe'

Cow in heat -- ovary has a mature follicle containing the now ripe oocyte (Egg)

Cow goes out of heat -- folicle ruptures due to the release of Gnrh - which releases the hormone LH which stands for Leutenizing Hormone . The follicle Leutenizes and ruptures basicly releasing the egg to the Fimbria and then on down the fallopian tube.

Ovary now has what is called an OD - (Ovulation Depression)

Over the next 5 days this depression on the ovary grows what is called a CL (Corpus Leutium) This CL produces the hormone Progesterone, the pregnancy hormone. It also keeps the cow from having short - multiple cycles.

The CL stays in place naturaly until about the 13th day for most cows. Then the release of signals starts to produce estrogen, and the CL will regress and go away to make another follicle. Only if she was not bred however.

Your Donor cow MUST have a fully functional CL -- producing the highest level of progesterone possible for her to work correctly. Some -- if not alot -- of places are now trying to cheat natures hormone curve by inserting Cidr's into the donors. This will help those cows with poor CL's, I agree, however, you can never replace the real thing in it's natural curve. So -- I don't do that either.

I use natural donor heats, and start the donors on thier natural hormone curve. Call me old fashioned I guess, but I use methods I know work well, and I have no reason to experiment. Some that know me will say I am stubborn -- I also agree -- but for the above reasons!

Again, BEST of luck to all -- just DO IT!

Terry