Shorty hf bulls

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sue

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Just returned from herd visits - beautiful weather up North!

I was speed reading but noticed Calrossie Diadem - posted, my Dad ( 81) felt that bull was going to be a hard calver, shoulder shape, etc. Jacob B ask your grandpa but he line bred the famed bull through purchases made from bilmar farms. Ask him ....  Dr Beaver was looking for Diadem semen years back and if any one is reading - send him a vial.
Killearn Max Juggler - again according to dad ( we had a son of him) bred 90 cows and won the Chicago International that fall.
Im not complaining our business is good.
 

justintime

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Is there some BWs in the Shorthorn breed that are too big?   Definite YES.

Is this a general issue in the breed? From my experience of calving a few thousand cows over the years from 7 purebred breeds as well as a large commercial herd - NO.

As I stated in previous posts, I believe that the BW issue in most Shorthorn herds is no worse than in many other breeds. Yes there are many Angus that have smaller BWs, but there are also some Angus BWs that are getting out of control as well. This breed will be dealing with this issue before long as well. There are some bigger BWs in the Shorthorn breed, and we need to address them. We do not have to mess with the entire breed population if this is not a problem.

Compared to the Herefords, Simmental, Maine and Charolais we have raised, the Shorthorns were consistently the easiest calving breed. We don't have many Shorthorns with any Maine influence in their background, but the ones we do have consistently have slightly bigger BWs than the others. Actually the Hereford cows we ran, had the most calving problems. We did not have many major issues with our Charolais cows but we did have an occasional c-sector from them- and from the Herefords and Maines. The Chi cattle we raised were easier calvers as well. Our family has ran cows on this place since 1903, and my dad saw his first c section in 1972, from a Simmental heifer.  He had also not seen a prolapsed uterus until the Herefords and Charolais arrived. I think our Charolais cows had a higher incidence of prolapse than the Herefords. We have never had a prolapse in a Shorthorn cow and the Shorthorns have been here for 107 years now. Just last spring, I heard of a Shorthorn having a prolapse, and that was the first I had heard of. I expect there are more but they are unusual in the breed. My vet would look like the Maytag repair man if all he dealt with are Shorthorn calvings. In our last 3 years of calving, we have had vet assists on 3 occasions from 430 calvings. I will stand that record beside most other breeds today.

My theory is that some of the calving issues today are related to the man made changes we have made to our females. This obsession with the so called big hip in our females, can result in the pin bones being  too high which results in smaller birth canals. Why do you think Brahman cows could be bred to an elephant and still calve it? It is because they have not altered the shape of the hip in their breed. I do not care how much rib shape or capacity a heifer has if she has a small vulva or does not have some folds of lose skin in her udder. These females are simply calving problems waiting for a place to happen. IMO, even heifer calves that have not reached puberty need to have some evidence of fertility in them. If there is a serious problem developing, it is this issue of small vulva's in the females. I am seeing far too many of them. I am not trying to be smart here, but I do not think this is as big a problem in Canadian cattle as it is in the US... that is just how I am seeing it. Some of these females look very attractive, but would struggle to calve a Longhorn sired calf unassisted.

So aj.... my experience says that my answer to your question if Shorthorns have a BW problem is :  In general NO, in specific circumstances... YES... just like in other breeds. I happen to think that the Shorthorn breed has made some progress in this area in recent years, and more will come in time. We have sold 153 bulls in the past 5 years, with most going to commercial producers. In that time, I have not had one complaint about calving issues and many have been repeat buyers. Two commerical bull buyers purchased their 14th bull this spring. They both run large herds with bulls from two other breeds, and they are liking the Shorthorn cross calves they are getting. Not one comment about calves being too big at birth. One other bull buyer purchased a bull with a 105 lb BW in 2009, and used him along with a Polled Hereford bull on his heifers. I held my breath when he told me he had used this bull on his heifers, as I expected to hear some stories of calving problems. When I asked him how the calves came, he said he had no problems with the Shorthorn, but the Polled Hereford calves were way too big and created some problems.

I said in a previous post that we did not assist a single bull calf in this year's calf crop. There were 4 assists from 148 calves born, and all were heifers. 2 backwards, one was a convenience pull and one hard pull. I never got that kind of success from any of the other breeds we have had. I am not against the breed getting a better handle on BWs but I do think we need to identify what we are trying to do, and what the consequences will be. I think it would be wrong to end up with a breed with lower BWs and find out that we have lost some of the great attributes that have been bred into our cattle in the past few decades.

The bull that topped our 2010 bull sale, was a Saskvalley Pioneer 126P  and was out of a Major Leroy first calf heifer. He weighed 78 lbs at birth, and he was the Reserve Grand Champion bull at the Iowa State Fair last Saturday. He weighed 1585 lbs and had been breeding cows prior to the show. I am glad that his owner did not believe, as aj has said, that you can only be competitive with high BW cattle. If this man believed that, he would never have taken him to the State Fair. This bull is an example of what I would like to produce in mass amounts. ( only hopefully with ears... it was -46 the night he was born and when I found him, his ears were froze solid, but he was sucking his mom with his tail slapping his sides.

Now... where is my drink?
 

justintime

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in regards to the comment that I say what people want to hear, I really would like to find out what is meant by that?  I have never made a comment on here, that was not just what I thought about any subject, and I have never made comments to please anyone. I just say what I am thinking. I have no problems with difference of opinions, in fact I wish more people would have an opinion and express it. What I don't like, and usually comment on, are posts that degrade any person, any breeding program or any branch or bloodline of a breed. General statements like " you can not compete in the show ring unless you have big BWs"  or " that all show cattle are of no value in the real world" etc. When I see these types of comments I usually comment. It does not bother me as I know you cannot generalize like this, but what really bothers me, is that there are many young people and other people new to this industry that read these comments and may take them in the wrong manner. 

I have never tried to be the " nice guy" and dodge a question. If I am guilty of anything it is writing too much.
 

justintime

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Now my list of top 10 Canadian Shorthorn bulls. 

in no particular order:

Saskvalley Navajo 153M
Kinnaber Leader 6th ( honorable mentions, his full brother Kinnaber Leader 9th as well as Kinnaber Leader 3rd)
Eionmor Mr Gus 80C
Huberdale Mastercharge 42T
Diamond Captain Mark 27C
Wolf Willow Major Leroy 1M
Hillview Hobo
Butterfield Able Seaman
Killearn Max Juggler ( honorable mention  Killearn Cyril 30th  ( both from the 50s)
Muridale Buster 14K

Many more honourable mentions:

Scotsdale Rodney
Scotsmorr Fascinator
Ball Dee Perfect Count
Pleasant Dawn Seal 2nd
Manitoba Sunrise
and many more that were great breeding sires
 

Aussie

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justintime said:
As I stated in previous posts, I believe that the BW issue in most Shorthorn herds is no worse than in many other breeds. Yes there are many Angus that have smaller BWs, but there are also some Angus BWs that are getting out of control as well. This breed will be dealing with this issue before long as well. There are some bigger BWs in the Shorthorn breed, and we need to address them. We do not have to mess with the entire breed population if this is not a problem.
I have been reading this with great interest and with JIT bringing angus in I feel I will jump in as this is something I feel very strongly about.
Firstly I release that I am on the other side of the world and things are different but the basic cattle breeding pratices should be similar. Calving ease is influenced by nutrition, calf shape, bull and cow structure. Bulls need a good laid in set of shoulders. Cows need a good hip to pin. Many breeders are so hooked up on birth weight EPD's they forget to select for actual calving ease. I have used many higher birth wt. bulls (+ breed ave.) over hfrs but they have been set up right for calves the right shape.
.......Here comes the bit many will not agree with.
I feel the angus in the states has lost its way. Breeding these short heavily muscled big shouldered bulls is heading for problem calving. Sure the calves may be little but with their shoulders will they come out. I don't think the argument for quick finishing stacks up. Here we are paid by weight all cattle are finished on grass. We have been doing it since day dot it is not a new thing and have been able to do it with the high performance high growth cattle from the past twenty years. The trend to low frame early maturity cattle mean yes they will fatten quickly but once fat that's it. The single most important factor influencing profit is weight so growth should be a high priority. To clarify growth I am talking about thickness plus growth/frame. It is easy to make a short animal appear thick but much harder to make a framer animal that is thick. That is what I try to breed and what my clients want.
That is my rant from down under I feel better and if you don't agree that's fine I feel better saying it


 

aj

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National headlines. The renowned breeder and close friend to the owner of the Shorthorn Country, has announced that the Shorthorn breed doe not have a birth weight problem. Grant stated that the breed does not have a problem and any discussion about it is not wise. It is no longer nessecary for shorthorn breeders to list birth weights or even discuss the birth weight issue. If you do discuss the issue you will be branded as someone who hates the breed. Shorthorn breeders breathed a sigh of relief as we can now just keep keeping on. The bwt issue has been taken off the national meetings discussion docket and there has been a flood of phone calls into the Omaha office asking for heifer bulls. The burden has been lifted. Everybody should know that the Shorthorn breed does not have a big birth weight problem. The answer is NO!  ;D
 

Okotoks

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Aussie said:
justintime said:
As I stated in previous posts, I believe that the BW issue in most Shorthorn herds is no worse than in many other breeds. Yes there are many Angus that have smaller BWs, but there are also some Angus BWs that are getting out of control as well. This breed will be dealing with this issue before long as well. There are some bigger BWs in the Shorthorn breed, and we need to address them. We do not have to mess with the entire breed population if this is not a problem.
Firstly I release that I am on the other side of the world and things are different but the basic cattle breeding pratices should be similar. Calving ease is influenced by nutrition, calf shape, bull and cow structure. Bulls need a good laid in set of shoulders. Cows need a good hip to pin. Many breeders are so hooked up on birth weight EPD's they forget to select for actual calving ease. I have used many higher birth wt. bulls (+ breed ave.) over hfrs but they have been set up right for calves the right shape.
.......Here comes the bit many will not agree with.
I agree, structure and shape will influence calving ease way more than birth weight. Any time you start to single trait select you are heading for a train wreck!
 

trevorgreycattleco

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sue said:
Just returned from herd visits - beautiful weather up North!

I was speed reading but noticed Calrossie Diadem - posted, my Dad ( 81) felt that bull was going to be a hard calver, shoulder shape, etc. Jacob B ask your grandpa but he line bred the famed bull through purchases made from bilmar farms. Ask him ....  Dr Beaver was looking for Diadem semen years back and if any one is reading - send him a vial.
Killearn Max Juggler - again according to dad ( we had a son of him) bred 90 cows and won the Chicago International that fall.
Im not complaining our business is good.

So where did you go and what were the highlights if you don't mind sharing. Always like your reports on your travels when we talk.
 

justintime

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aj said:
National headlines. The renowned breeder and close friend to the owner of the Shorthorn Country, has announced that the Shorthorn breed doe not have a birth weight problem. Grant stated that the breed does not have a problem and any discussion about it is not wise. It is no longer nessecary for shorthorn breeders to list birth weights or even discuss the birth weight issue. If you do discuss the issue you will be branded as someone who hates the breed. Shorthorn breeders breathed a sigh of relief as we can now just keep keeping on. The bwt issue has been taken off the national meetings discussion docket and there has been a flood of phone calls into the Omaha office asking for heifer bulls. The burden has been lifted. Everybody should know that the Shorthorn breed does not have a big birth weight problem. The answer is NO!  ;D


So aj... where did I ever say that discussion about BW or any other issue is not wise?  And explain to me, why I am not hearing from my bull buyers that Shorthorn bulls are siring calves with too much BW? And why have we been able to start to sell bulls to commercial producers who have been using bulls of other breeds for several years? I did say that the Shorthorn breed does have some BW issues and they need to be addressed, and I also said that almost every breed has some BW issues. Calving ease and BW have a definite correlation, but they are not the same thing.
 

LostFarmer

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This is some good debate.  I am enjoying the discussion.  I have often wondered about the whole BW thing.  How heritable is birthweight?  We all like to blame the bull but the cow is half the genetic makeup and all the pelvis area and nature part.  Feed and nutrition along with exercise all falls into the equation.  

I have seen some angus heifers that can't deliver a 70 lb calf because birthweight has been such the focus that they lost the pelvis area.  Those wide hooks and pins can have advantages.

It is all about balance.  I figure a cow should be able to safety deliver 10% of her weight.  

I don't know much about shorties other than grandpa said a little shorthorn was the best thing you could have in a cow.  He loved a 1/4 dual purpose SH in his mama cow.  
 

trevorgreycattleco

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Aussie said:
justintime said:
As I stated in previous posts, I believe that the BW issue in most Shorthorn herds is no worse than in many other breeds. Yes there are many Angus that have smaller BWs, but there are also some Angus BWs that are getting out of control as well. This breed will be dealing with this issue before long as well. There are some bigger BWs in the Shorthorn breed, and we need to address them. We do not have to mess with the entire breed population if this is not a problem.
I have been reading this with great interest and with JIT bringing angus in I feel I will jump in as this is something I feel very strongly about.
Firstly I release that I am on the other side of the world and things are different but the basic cattle breeding pratices should be similar. Calving ease is influenced by nutrition, calf shape, bull and cow structure. Bulls need a good laid in set of shoulders. Cows need a good hip to pin. Many breeders are so hooked up on birth weight EPD's they forget to select for actual calving ease. I have used many higher birth wt. bulls (+ breed ave.) over hfrs but they have been set up right for calves the right shape.
.......Here comes the bit many will not agree with.
I feel the angus in the states has lost its way. Breeding these short heavily muscled big shouldered bulls is heading for problem calving. Sure the calves may be little but with their shoulders will they come out. I don't think the argument for quick finishing stacks up. Here we are paid by weight all cattle are finished on grass. We have been doing it since day dot it is not a new thing and have been able to do it with the high performance high growth cattle from the past twenty years. The trend to low frame early maturity cattle mean yes they will fatten quickly but once fat that's it. The single most important factor influencing profit is weight so growth should be a high priority. To clarify growth I am talking about thickness plus growth/frame. It is easy to make a short animal appear thick but much harder to make a framer animal that is thick. That is what I try to breed and what my clients want.
That is my rant from down under I feel better and if you don't agree that's fine I feel better saying it
Good points. My question is , when is to much growth a problem? How big are your mature cows on avg? The high growth cattle( black angus) I have used here never really seemed to stop growing and ate hay like a elephant during the winter. For me once they get over a high 6 frame they are to slab sided and hard doing for a all grass diet. Do you know anything about the Waimata bull Schaff's is using? He looks cool to me. Daughters out of that bull crossed on some shorthorn, RA sure seem like a good deal to me.    Thanks mate!
 

justintime

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I think everyone would be much happier in the Shorthorn breed if we could moderate BWs some, and in my view, do it without sacrificing much performance or any other economic trait. That would be a more perfect world. What I do not agree with is the generalization that the entire breed has a BW issue and it is destroying the breed. I would suggest that the attitude of many breeders has more to do with the success of the breed in the commercial sector. If we constantly tell people our BWs are out of control, many of them are going to believe us. When I am asked by commercial producers about BWs and calving ease, I tell them that Shorthorns are not much different to other breeds of cattle. You have to watch BWs and keep them reasonable and you have to be conscious of calving ease issues like body shape and shoulder angle, etc. I tell them I have not had any more calving problems with my Shorthorns than I did with any other breed I have raised.

I remember my mother telling me that if I keep saying it isn't going to rain, it probably won't. On another occasion I was complaining that bull sales were slow. She told me that if I think I won't sell any bulls I probably won't. She was a firm believer in that a person's attitude determines much of their success, and that is one of the most valuable lessons I learned from her. It is kind of the same thinking as Arthur Huber ( founder of Huberdale) telling me as a teenager, that you have to have pride in what you produce in order to generate success. He also told me that having pride in your cattle, did not mean they were better than anyone else's.

There are many breeders ( including myself) who have not experienced the calving issues that some others have. Yes, I would prefer getting our BWs lower, and it is happening. As I said earlier, this situation took years to develop and it will take some time to correct, but it is happening. The sky is not falling and we will see great improvement in this area if we study our lessons and make proper breeding decisions. Too many breeders run in one direction chasing one problem and then have to turn around and run in the other direction a few years down the road. If we all started thinking in terms of optimum values of any trait, we would all be better off.  BWs are starting to come down across the breed. There will be those who do not follow this trend, but why should we worry about them. Like any other trait, people will buy what they think will work for themselves, not what you want.
 

oakbar

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I've been following this post the last few days and, other than the "atttude" that AJ continues to demonstrate even though several of us have asked him not to, I have enjoyed the overall discussion.  Aussie, I appreciate your input and hope we continue to get more of it.  I probably have been in the AJ camp of complaining about the birth weights in the Shorthorn breed too much.  I have to say that I used  a few Maine and Clubby bulls on my small herd of Shorthorn
cows this year and had larger birth weights on average and more difficult births than I've had in some time with Shorthorn bulls.  My herd is a very small sample so this may not mean much, however.    I watch my cows at calving time(probably too closely) and probably get involved in the whole calving process earlier than I should most times.  Its just too darn easy to get impatient when you are watching them on a barn camera.  I try to pay attention to BW's and CE EPDs but I am usually more dissappointed by bulls from other breeds when it comes to difficult births.  Again, I understand this is a very small sample to try to generate any statistically significant data.    I will say one thing for the Red Angus bulls we have used for clean up---I have never touched one of the calves (Shorthorn cows bred to RA bulls) during the birth process and they usually get up a run like deer within minutes of their birth.  In my limited experience I would say the RA breed has as good a case as any for a claim on calving ease.    We may see a bigger trend develop within the commercial minded Shorthorn breeders here in  the US towards the Durham Reds.  Not only could they offer help on birthweights without giving up anything on growth and productivity but it would be in a highly maternal, mostly solid red package to avoid most discounts at American markets.  I know this is being practiced by several breeders already but, if the SH breed is to capture a significantly larger percentage of the commercial market here in the US, we may need to acclerate this trend.  I personally like the roan color of the SH breed, but if it causes us marketing problems here in the States we may need to follow the lead of those trying for solid red animals.  JMHO
 

aj

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"The big lie". A lie, if audacious enough and repeated enough times, will believed by the masses.
 

jaimiediamond

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aj said:
"The big lie". A lie, if audacious enough and repeated enough times, will believed by the masses.

In reading everyone' s comments I am not seeing any lies.  I see opinions.  The truth is as JIT stated there are cattle with BW problems and there are cattle without BW problems.  I say cattle because this is every breed not just Shorthorn.  It is not necessarily the BW that causes a calving problem or not, a large culprit would be the females pelvis structure or even her BW genetics.    To say it is a major problem for Shorthorns is BWs is unfair because the majority of the cattle I know and have seen have not had this problem.  I believe that we should always be aware and try and avoid problems but at this time we have not used bloodlines that are causing these "radical" problems you claim to have.
 

LostFarmer

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A long time cattle man, friend and neighbor told me once that no one breed has the monopoly on good cattle OR problems.  He commented that there are lines of cattle in each breed that will benefit your program and there are lines that will be a wreck.  He gave the example of using an angus bull that was "all that and more" until at branding the calves went in a hole and died.  They had PAP before PAP was even being looked at.  A bull that for 90% of cattlemen was a great aid was a wreck for him.  I think the same is true for the SH breeders there are some bulls that have BW issues and the corresponding calving ease issues but not all.  I see another breeder that has selected for calving ease to the point his cattle have no hip and no grow.  That is an equally bad problem. 

You want to see calving problems go look at a large dairy.  We pulled over 50% of the calves born on the 350 cow dairy I worked at during college.  It didn't matter the breed or the cross the calves were monsters.  The problem was 3 fold the cows were dried off and had 50-75 days to put on weight to calve and put it in the tank.  Those cows were pushed as drys to build up the reserves.  If not then at calving they took too much weight off and had the delay as they went back to the hot milking ration.  We dealt with the calving issues of over fed drys than the cow issues of underfed drys.  The cows were also in a feed lot instead of out walking.  The largest calf I personally remember weighed 153 lbs and was out of a 1,900 lb holstein cow.  They were monsters.  If they were under 90 lbs we called the bull calving ease.  Because bull calves are worth little to the dairy man calving ease is not a major factor in sire selection.  I personally liked to slip an angus bull in on my first calvers.  The reason being a hard pull take it out of the cow and effects breed backs. 

How many of these hard calvers in the SH world were show heifers as well?  I think that makes a difference.  Why are guys like JIT not having the same problems that others are?  I would suspect that cows that walk on a larger pasture and open range situation to calve easier than feed lot heifers.  I wasn't aware that there was an issue with SH birthweights until this thread.  I am still not sure the extent of the problem.  Given my grandpa's belief that a little shorthorn never hurt a mama cow I have been contemplating trying a little to improve the cows mothering and milking ability.    Keep talking folks I am learning from this banter.  LF
 

Doc

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aj said:
National headlines. The renowned breeder and close friend to the owner of the Shorthorn Country, has announced that the Shorthorn breed doe not have a birth weight problem. Grant stated that the breed does not have a problem and any discussion about it is not wise. It is no longer nessecary for shorthorn breeders to list birth weights or even discuss the birth weight issue. If you do discuss the issue you will be branded as someone who hates the breed. Shorthorn breeders breathed a sigh of relief as we can now just keep keeping on. The bwt issue has been taken off the national meetings discussion docket and there has been a flood of phone calls into the Omaha office asking for heifer bulls. The burden has been lifted. Everybody should know that the Shorthorn breed does not have a big birth weight problem. The answer is NO!  ;D

aj, you can be such a childish jerk.
 

justintime

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I have been involved in Shorthorns all of my life, and my family has raised them here since 1903. I have heard of Shorthorn BW problems for most of my lifetime and I believed it totally until we started to run other breeds of cow herds with our Shorthorns under the same management system. That was when I started to think" hey, yes there are some big BW Shorthorns, but there are also some in these other breeds as well". This is another topic I suspect where there can not be any winners. I am well aware that my calving record may be partly due to the management and feed my cows get. I make my cows walk when the weather permits in the winter, and I am convinced that calving ease is linked very closely to exercise and diet. That may result in the same genetics in another herd having a completely different set of calving ease records.

This is not a black and white issue, but from my experience, not only in my herd, but from several other herds I am familiar with, I think the BWs in the Shorthorn breed have improved. I think back to the popular genetics in the 80s , and it was a much worse situation then IMO. The popular bulls produced some monsterous BWs... Seville, Guinness, Dreamboat, Ayatollah and some of his sons, Seven T's Greg, and several others were all capable of siring some 130 lb or bigger calves. When I think of where we have come from, we are in a better situation today, and that makes me think that the next generation of Shorthorns will have even better BWs because it is one of the key selection issues being used by almost all breeders.

I do think there are more good calving genetics in the Shorthorn breed today that at anytime in the past 25 years. More improvement will come in time. I see some of the sires some are promoting as being low BW sires and my personal opinion is that they may be great sires to reduce BW but they give up on far too many other traits. All I am saying is let's be careful here and think about the breeding decisions we are making.
 

Okotoks

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Doc said:
aj said:
National headlines. The renowned breeder and close friend to the owner of the Shorthorn Country, has announced that the Shorthorn breed doe not have a birth weight problem. Grant stated that the breed does not have a problem and any discussion about it is not wise. It is no longer nessecary for shorthorn breeders to list birth weights or even discuss the birth weight issue. If you do discuss the issue you will be branded as someone who hates the breed. Shorthorn breeders breathed a sigh of relief as we can now just keep keeping on. The bwt issue has been taken off the national meetings discussion docket and there has been a flood of phone calls into the Omaha office asking for heifer bulls. The burden has been lifted. Everybody should know that the Shorthorn breed does not have a big birth weight problem. The answer is NO!  ;D

aj, you can be such a childish jerk.
I don't actually know many of the breeders on Steer Planet but look at it as a great place to share ideas, experiences and maybe learn something. I do however know JIT and have a great deal of respect for his knowledge, breeding program and the time he contributes to the promotion of the breed. If every shorthorn breeder sold 30 bulls a year this breed would be exploding. JIT doesn't just talk the talk, he walks the walk!
 
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