Simmental color questions....

[Simmgal]

Okay, I had a few questions that I tried to find on here, but I couldn't! If any of y'all can answer, please do so!  (thumbsup)

1. Is Westfall Voyager a spotter? I know that his son BMR Explorer is. I am wondering because I am planning on breeding him to a cow that had a VERY colorful calf out of Built Right. The cow under question is out of a Homo Black bull and a white uddered cow.

2. I have read that Lucky Man is  a spotter. Has anyone had calves out of him that are crazy colored up? I am wanting to breed him to a whiteface cow whose calf from Dream On that had a white toe, udder, and face. She was also bred to a bull that has had multiple calves that are spotted up out of black cows, and her calf was all black. I am not sure if his spotting will cause a major problem with her or not. She REALLY needs the EPD help and I feel that the calf could be a very powerful bull.

3. Do you think Rendition will throw major white on ALL BLACK simmental cows out of both black parents? There are two cows I wish to breed him to that have no white on them, and their dams and sires do not either.

Thanks for your help!  (thumbsup)

 

[LN]

1. I have no idea on Voyager. I would ask the owners is they have had any spotted progeny or know of any reports.

2. From observations, I've come to the conclusion that a high percentage of bald face cows carry the spotting gene. I would not breed a bull that has the spotting gene to a white face cow.

3. He could. Some solid blacks carry the spotting gene so it's a possibility.

I can't wait until that DNA marker test for the spotting gene is available!

 

[Simmgal]

I can't wait until that DNA marker test for the spotting gene is available!

Yes. Couldn't agree more...


Thank you for your responses! ;D

 

[leanbeef]

I would just reiterate what LN posted...

I don't know about Voyager either. Knowing that Explorer does carry the gene, it had to come from one parent, so unless you knew his dam was a spot carrier, I would be leery of his sire if you really want to avoid spots. Especially if you know the cow has produced spots.

Lucky Man IS a spotter, and I agree that most (Simmental) cows with bald or blaze faces -- actually any white on the face, feet, belly or tail -- are good candidates to be spot gene carriers. I might chance a small amount of white on the navel or udder, but most with more than that seem to be carriers. There are other bulls with solid numbers that can help your cow's EPD profile if that's what you need.

Rendition on solid black cows is a crap shoot. If they have Simmental or spots in the pedigree, no matter how far back, then spots are a possibility. Colorwise, bulls like that work best on Angus-based cows to add some Simmie influence and a touch of white without any train wrecks. If you're pretty sure you're females are non spotters or if you wanna maybe find out that they are not, then use a baldy bull on em and see what you get.

 

[Simmgal]

I would just reiterate what LN posted...

I don't know about Voyager either. Knowing that Explorer does carry the gene, it had to come from one parent, so unless you knew his dam was a spot carrier, I would be leery of his sire if you really want to avoid spots. Especially if you know the cow has produced spots.

Lucky Man IS a spotter, and I agree that most (Simmental) cows with bald or blaze faces -- actually any white on the face, feet, belly or tail -- are good candidates to be spot gene carriers. I might chance a small amount of white on the navel or udder, but most with more than that seem to be carriers. There are other bulls with solid numbers that can help your cow's EPD profile if that's what you need.

Rendition on solid black cows is a crap shoot. If they have Simmental or spots in the pedigree, no matter how far back, then spots are a possibility. Colorwise, bulls like that work best on Angus-based cows to add some Simmie influence and a touch of white without any train wrecks. If you're pretty sure you're females are non spotters or if you wanna maybe find out that they are not, then use a baldy bull on em and see what you get.

Thanks leanbeef! You mentioned that there are some other good solid numbered bulls. Which ones would you suggest? I don't wanna go red, otherwise I would have used Beef Maker! Thanks again for your reply.

 

[leanbeef]

Well, we pay a LOT of attention to EPD profiles...especially API. I think that's the most important number because it's a combination of a lot of important traits. We've used some Manifest and have several TNT Tankers on the ground now. I wasn't crazy about the Manifest calves at first...they grow fast and go through an awkward phase, I thought. But they do GROW and they have plenty of muscle. He works best on small frame, soft middled cows that need a touch of "umph" and don't need help with the milk EPD.

I think the Tankers are going to be a little more moderate and earlier which I like. He's another one that puts some gas in the tank, but he won't add milk according to his EPD. And his API isn't nearly what we'd like to see or use, but I think he was worth using some. Most of our cows are moderate in milk numbers and give plenty, so I haven't been tough on bulls with average milk numbers.

We've used Bettis and have Singletary calves coming this fall (full brother that I think is actually better than Bettis...new last spring with Genex). We're going pretty heavy with Top Grade this spring...he's a stout numbered 3/4 blood Upgrade son, and he's like a +8 on milk with a 150 API. And I love him in his photo. Check him out at http://www.rivercreekfarms.com/simmental-simangus-herd-bulls/mcm-top-grade-018x.html

Haven't seen him, but I like the Upgrades I have seen, and I trust what I've heard about him. We may use Upgrade this spring, but I'll have to watch the cow's numbers and make sure they can stand the mating on paper. I like the idea of using an Upgrade son and maybe hedging on his milk EPD a little. I'm a big fan of Olie and Legacy for making females...we're actually running an Olie son from 3C behind our AI program now.

If you're thinking about baldies, take a look at PRS Blazin' Hot & Longs Shear Pleasure. I'm also intrigued by the numbers on a Predestined son at Sunshine Farms called SSF Predistined U221 (yes, the name is misspelled in the ASA database). He's a blaze faced bull with really good EPD profile. He's a Predestined, though, so obviously a half blood. And if a 1/2 blood works, we'll probably be using some Sharper Image, but he's not gonna help your milk number, either.

 

[LN]

Dikeman's Sure Bet has good numbers but not a fan AT ALL of his calves phenotype wise, although he does have some nice sons available. Dikemans Double Down maybe, but I haven't seen any calf reports on him.

 

[showgirl621]

I am new to this site but using my daughter to just voice some information about the spotting gene in Simmental cattle.  Currently the ASA is working with Dr. Beavers of University of Ill. to identify and locate the spotting gene.  There have been several attempts by the American Simmental Association to locate animals that are spotted so DNA can be collected.  If you have a spotted animal and can collect tail hair for DNA, please call or email ASA and they will help get that information collected and sent in.  The potential ability to identify the spotting gene seems to have significant economic importance to a lot of folks.  If you suspect you have an animal that could carry the gene, gather the information, contact American Simmental Association and become a part of the discovery process.

 

[leanbeef]

I am new to this site but using my daughter to just voice some information about the spotting gene in Simmental cattle.  Currently the ASA is working with Dr. Beavers of University of Ill. to identify and locate the spotting gene.  There have been several attempts by the American Simmental Association to locate animals that are spotted so DNA can be collected.  If you have a spotted animal and can collect tail hair for DNA, please call or email ASA and they will help get that information collected and sent in.  The potential ability to identify the spotting gene seems to have significant economic importance to a lot of folks.  If you suspect you have an animal that could carry the gene, gather the information, contact American Simmental Association and become a part of the discovery process.

Right...ASA has been working to collect samples so they can start this project. The issue has been they need several samples from spotted calves and several samples from solid colored calves ALL FROM ONE SIRE. They started looking for Lucky Man or Lucky Dice progeny...I've talked with Wade Schafer about the possibility of using Built Right calves since a lot of people may still be using him and getting some color. The problem is a lot of the spotted calves that are produced end up at the sale barn or people don't know to get samples before disposing of them. Now that the baldy thing is popular and people may not be as quick to dump colored-up cattle, I'm hoping the samples can be found and collected. So if anybody has a spotted Built Right calf... Or a large group of calves by one sire that are partly spotted and partly solid... Call ASA!

 

[leanbeef]

Dikeman's Sure Bet has good numbers but not a fan AT ALL of his calves phenotype wise, although he does have some nice sons available. Dikemans Double Down maybe, but I haven't seen any calf reports on him.

Sure Bet does have good numbers except in the milk department, and I think he's gaining ground there. I went to Gibbs last year specifically to see the Sure Bets, and I can't say I was particularly impressed. They're typical of calving ease cattle...a little fine boned...not as stout or beefy as you might want to see them. Visiting with Gordon, they're most excited about the potential of his daughters. Even though his milk numbers are below breed average, Gordon says the young Sure Bet daughters are weaning the top calves. I ended up buying a Sure Bet yearling heifer, and she's doing a very nice job with her first calf now...a heifer calf by Shear Pleasure. I'd still like to stouten her up some, but she's a hard working and doing a good job.

I've asked about Double Down, and I think the verdict is still out on that bull based on his first progeny. The advice I got was to "wait and let some other people try him for a while" before using him.

 

[kfacres]

I am new to this site but using my daughter to just voice some information about the spotting gene in Simmental cattle.  Currently the ASA is working with Dr. Beavers of University of Ill. to identify and locate the spotting gene.  There have been several attempts by the American Simmental Association to locate animals that are spotted so DNA can be collected.  If you have a spotted animal and can collect tail hair for DNA, please call or email ASA and they will help get that information collected and sent in.  The potential ability to identify the spotting gene seems to have significant economic importance to a lot of folks.  If you suspect you have an animal that could carry the gene, gather the information, contact American Simmental Association and become a part of the discovery process.

Right...ASA has been working to collect samples so they can start this project. The issue has been they need several samples from spotted calves and several samples from solid colored calves ALL FROM ONE SIRE. They started looking for Lucky Man or Lucky Dice progeny...I've talked with Wade Schafer about the possibility of using Built Right calves since a lot of people may still be using him and getting some color. The problem is a lot of the spotted calves that are produced end up at the sale barn or people don't know to get samples before disposing of them. Now that the baldy thing is popular and people may not be as quick to dump colored-up cattle, I'm hoping the samples can be found and collected. So if anybody has a spotted Built Right calf... Or a large group of calves by one sire that are partly spotted and partly solid... Call ASA!

I have a Lucky Dice grand daughter- that through a spotted calf this year-- Of course, he's sired by a Shorthorn bull- and his color pattern is nearly identical to his sires: so I guess I don't know for sure if he's a true Sim Spotter or not.  That, and the cow isn't a pure Sim- but 3/4 RA...

Do you think that would interest the ASA-- maybe if push came to shove?

 

[leanbeef]

I am new to this site but using my daughter to just voice some information about the spotting gene in Simmental cattle.  Currently the ASA is working with Dr. Beavers of University of Ill. to identify and locate the spotting gene.  There have been several attempts by the American Simmental Association to locate animals that are spotted so DNA can be collected.  If you have a spotted animal and can collect tail hair for DNA, please call or email ASA and they will help get that information collected and sent in.  The potential ability to identify the spotting gene seems to have significant economic importance to a lot of folks.  If you suspect you have an animal that could carry the gene, gather the information, contact American Simmental Association and become a part of the discovery process.

Right...ASA has been working to collect samples so they can start this project. The issue has been they need several samples from spotted calves and several samples from solid colored calves ALL FROM ONE SIRE. They started looking for Lucky Man or Lucky Dice progeny...I've talked with Wade Schafer about the possibility of using Built Right calves since a lot of people may still be using him and getting some color. The problem is a lot of the spotted calves that are produced end up at the sale barn or people don't know to get samples before disposing of them. Now that the baldy thing is popular and people may not be as quick to dump colored-up cattle, I'm hoping the samples can be found and collected. So if anybody has a spotted Built Right calf... Or a large group of calves by one sire that are partly spotted and partly solid... Call ASA!

I have a Lucky Dice grand daughter- that through a spotted calf this year-- Of course, he's sired by a Shorthorn bull- and his color pattern is nearly identical to his sires: so I guess I don't know for sure if he's a true Sim Spotter or not.  That, and the cow isn't a pure Sim- but 3/4 RA...

Do you think that would interest the ASA-- maybe if push came to shove?

Not really. They need numbers by one sire in order to be able to make the comparisons and know what they're looking at. I would love it, though, if they could use a baldy bull, hoping to be able to relay the findings on later to the baldy gene in Simmental. For instance, if they had ten spotted calves, ten solid calves and ten baldies, they might be able to figure out the link between the blaze/baldy gene and the spot gene since it seems most baldies carry a spot gene. Just a theory...

 

[LostFarmer]

Using color as a selection criteria is the quickest way to ruin a breed.  Good cattle are good cattle no matter the color or spots.  Single trait selection will doom any breed right there with paper breeders.  Using EPD's without looking at the cattle has made some ugly unfunctional angus cattle. 

 

[coachmac]

What you might consider is calling Owen Brothers Cattle Company about WV and Rendition.  They own them and would be able to answer questions about each with ease.

http://owenbroscattleco.com/

 

[Limiman12]

Using color as a selection criteria is the quickest way to ruin a breed.  Good cattle are good cattle no matter the color or spots.  Single trait selection will doom any breed right there with paper breeders.  Using EPD's without looking at the cattle has made some ugly unfunctional angus cattle. 

Amen, single trait for or against is never good

 

[LN]

Using color as a selection criteria is the quickest way to ruin a breed.  Good cattle are good cattle no matter the color or spots.  Single trait selection will doom any breed right there with paper breeders.  Using EPD's without looking at the cattle has made some ugly unfunctional angus cattle. 

I agree to an extent but until order buyers agree color pattern will remain as a selection criteria in my herd.

 

[Simmgal]

Dikeman's Sure Bet has good numbers but not a fan AT ALL of his calves phenotype wise, although he does have some nice sons available. Dikemans Double Down maybe, but I haven't seen any calf reports on him.

For the female I wanted to mate to Lucky Man, phenotype is slightly important as I would like to get a good sound bull that I could retain as a show prospect and eventually put into my herd or sell to a breeder. As far as Double Down, I have not seen many calves, but the ones that I have seen don't quite fit my idea..

 

[Simmgal]

Well, we pay a LOT of attention to EPD profiles...especially API. I think that's the most important number because it's a combination of a lot of important traits. We've used some Manifest and have several TNT Tankers on the ground now. I wasn't crazy about the Manifest calves at first...they grow fast and go through an awkward phase, I thought. But they do GROW and they have plenty of muscle. He works best on small frame, soft middled cows that need a touch of "umph" and don't need help with the milk EPD.

I think the Tankers are going to be a little more moderate and earlier which I like. He's another one that puts some gas in the tank, but he won't add milk according to his EPD. And his API isn't nearly what we'd like to see or use, but I think he was worth using some. Most of our cows are moderate in milk numbers and give plenty, so I haven't been tough on bulls with average milk numbers.

We've used Bettis and have Singletary calves coming this fall (full brother that I think is actually better than Bettis...new last spring with Genex). We're going pretty heavy with Top Grade this spring...he's a stout numbered 3/4 blood Upgrade son, and he's like a +8 on milk with a 150 API. And I love him in his photo. Check him out at http://www.rivercreekfarms.com/simmental-simangus-herd-bulls/mcm-top-grade-018x.html

Haven't seen him, but I like the Upgrades I have seen, and I trust what I've heard about him. We may use Upgrade this spring, but I'll have to watch the cow's numbers and make sure they can stand the mating on paper. I like the idea of using an Upgrade son and maybe hedging on his milk EPD a little. I'm a big fan of Olie and Legacy for making females...we're actually running an Olie son from 3C behind our AI program now.

If you're thinking about baldies, take a look at PRS Blazin' Hot & Longs Shear Pleasure. I'm also intrigued by the numbers on a Predestined son at Sunshine Farms called SSF Predistined U221 (yes, the name is misspelled in the ASA database). He's a blaze faced bull with really good EPD profile. He's a Predestined, though, so obviously a half blood. And if a 1/2 blood works, we'll probably be using some Sharper Image, but he's not gonna help your milk number, either.

I am trying to watch EPD profiles for this animal because I am trying to get a good bull out of her. I would want to be able to retain the animal for breeding purposes or to sell him to a breeder.

The Manifest calves that I have seen have not impressed me, but I do like the looks of his numbers. The cow could use some help with milk, and I do not think that Manifest will be the best fit there. The same is true for Tanker.

I have heavily considered Top Grade, but his EPD’s seem too good to be true. I also could not find semen on him, but maybe I am looking in the wrong area. He was a top pick earlier on in the year, but then I was unsure about unproven EPD’s.

I love the Upgrades that I have seen and my daughter out of him is impressive, but I would need more milk than his number suggests he has. He is on the short list, but not a top pick.

I used Olie on one of mine and the calf I got was C-R-A-Z-Y out of a very tame cow. This was not the first instance that I have heard of in my area. I also don’t know about the look he throws. He is an option though because of his EPD profile. Which Legacy? G151? I am ordering him with my next order, but I wasn’t sure about using him on this particular female.

My only problem with Shear Pleasure and Blazin Hot are their unproven numbers. They look too good to be true, similar to how Grandmaster and Added Value were a while ago. They are definitely on my watch list, but I am not sure about using them this season. A friend of mine owns a share in Blazin Hot and I am keeping in touch with him for calf reports. I would like to keep this animal as a Purebred so I would be looking at anything ¾ or purebred.

Thanks for your reports! Grandmaster is another top pick for this particular female because of his CE and Milk, but I was interested in Lucky Man for his growth if I am looking at keeping a bull.

 

[kfacres]

Well, we pay a LOT of attention to EPD profiles...especially API. I think that's the most important number because it's a combination of a lot of important traits. We've used some Manifest and have several TNT Tankers on the ground now. I wasn't crazy about the Manifest calves at first...they grow fast and go through an awkward phase, I thought. But they do GROW and they have plenty of muscle. He works best on small frame, soft middled cows that need a touch of "umph" and don't need help with the milk EPD.

I think the Tankers are going to be a little more moderate and earlier which I like. He's another one that puts some gas in the tank, but he won't add milk according to his EPD. And his API isn't nearly what we'd like to see or use, but I think he was worth using some. Most of our cows are moderate in milk numbers and give plenty, so I haven't been tough on bulls with average milk numbers.

We've used Bettis and have Singletary calves coming this fall (full brother that I think is actually better than Bettis...new last spring with Genex). We're going pretty heavy with Top Grade this spring...he's a stout numbered 3/4 blood Upgrade son, and he's like a +8 on milk with a 150 API. And I love him in his photo. Check him out at http://www.rivercreekfarms.com/simmental-simangus-herd-bulls/mcm-top-grade-018x.html

Haven't seen him, but I like the Upgrades I have seen, and I trust what I've heard about him. We may use Upgrade this spring, but I'll have to watch the cow's numbers and make sure they can stand the mating on paper. I like the idea of using an Upgrade son and maybe hedging on his milk EPD a little. I'm a big fan of Olie and Legacy for making females...we're actually running an Olie son from 3C behind our AI program now.

If you're thinking about baldies, take a look at PRS Blazin' Hot & Longs Shear Pleasure. I'm also intrigued by the numbers on a Predestined son at Sunshine Farms called SSF Predistined U221 (yes, the name is misspelled in the ASA database). He's a blaze faced bull with really good EPD profile. He's a Predestined, though, so obviously a half blood. And if a 1/2 blood works, we'll probably be using some Sharper Image, but he's not gonna help your milk number, either.

I am trying to watch EPD profiles for this animal because I am trying to get a good bull out of her. I would want to be able to retain the animal for breeding purposes or to sell him to a breeder.

The Manifest calves that I have seen have not impressed me, but I do like the looks of his numbers. The cow could use some help with milk, and I do not think that Manifest will be the best fit there. The same is true for Tanker.

I have heavily considered Top Grade, but his EPD’s seem too good to be true. I also could not find semen on him, but maybe I am looking in the wrong area. He was a top pick earlier on in the year, but then I was unsure about unproven EPD’s.

I love the Upgrades that I have seen and my daughter out of him is impressive, but I would need more milk than his number suggests he has. He is on the short list, but not a top pick.

I used Olie on one of mine and the calf I got was C-R-A-Z-Y out of a very tame cow. This was not the first instance that I have heard of in my area. I also don’t know about the look he throws. He is an option though because of his EPD profile. Which Legacy? G151? I am ordering him with my next order, but I wasn’t sure about using him on this particular female.

My only problem with Shear Pleasure and Blazin Hot are their unproven numbers. They look too good to be true, similar to how Grandmaster and Added Value were a while ago. They are definitely on my watch list, but I am not sure about using them this season. A friend of mine owns a share in Blazin Hot and I am keeping in touch with him for calf reports. I would like to keep this animal as a Purebred so I would be looking at anything ¾ or purebred.

Thanks for your reports! Grandmaster is another top pick for this particular female because of his CE and Milk, but I was interested in Lucky Man for his growth if I am looking at keeping a bull.

next to impossible to find a pleasing phenotype combo with genotype- especially considering production in proven format...


that's all part of the game- mixing and matching...

wait, i guess the above applied to dream on... which is why he's king.

 

[Simmgal]

next to impossible to find a pleasing phenotype combo with genotype- especially considering production in proven format...


that's all part of the game- mixing and matching...

wait, i guess the above applied to dream on... which is why he's king.

The main reason I liked Lucky man was because of his EPD's and I have liked the calves that I have seen in my area. I'm trying to find a good balance, but some of the bulls go too far one way or another.