Skip the bull, clone the semen?
- Thread starter chiangus
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Chiangus,
Cloning from sperm presents some large problems. First a sperm is a gamete and only has one copy of each chromosome. Every living member of the animal kingdom has a pair of each chromosome. Where do you want to get the other half of the genetic materials needed? If you use the bulls own sperm that is no guarantee that the genetic information will line up to make a clone. All DNA contained in sperm under goes genetic recombination and the chromosome used to source that contained in the sperm can not be controlled or directed.
Another big problem is that you still will need an ovum. Sperm does not have the cellular infrastructure to develop an embryo- no mitochondria, golgi apparatus etc. This makes cloning a cow much much easier than cloning a bull.
This just touches the subject other problems exist but you get the idea for the above statements.
Cloning from sperm presents some large problems. First a sperm is a gamete and only has one copy of each chromosome. Every living member of the animal kingdom has a pair of each chromosome. Where do you want to get the other half of the genetic materials needed? If you use the bulls own sperm that is no guarantee that the genetic information will line up to make a clone. All DNA contained in sperm under goes genetic recombination and the chromosome used to source that contained in the sperm can not be controlled or directed.
Another big problem is that you still will need an ovum. Sperm does not have the cellular infrastructure to develop an embryo- no mitochondria, golgi apparatus etc. This makes cloning a cow much much easier than cloning a bull.
This just touches the subject other problems exist but you get the idea for the above statements.
knabe
Well-known member
there is a chance of sloughed cells in the sperm from a few places. if you had a cell sorter, you might be able to do something. somebody must have tried this already.
knabe
Well-known member
look up mice and cloned sperm.
Chiangus,
Cloned sperm are not true sperm. They lack the tail to allow movement up the fallopian tubes and can't penetrate cell membrane to fertilize. All they are good for is in vitro techniques.
Having sperm reproductively selve has been attempted but never was very successful. The gametes produced had a poor survivability and low motility compared to sperm from meiosis. The selved sperm had to be helped out with energy sources (ATP, GTP) and other active metabolic support to let them form cell membranes etc. The bull just doesn't provide the sperm but his own QA department as well...
Using a cell sorter to get a few sloughed cells dispersed in the semen seems silly to me. I would extract spermatids and spermatocytes, develop a protocol to replicate them in vitro and then develop the applied development biology to get spermatozoa. I can use biology to get rid of the bad copies etc. To make this pay you would have to pay a large some of money per cow ($ 1,000's) and get some volume to keep a trained team together. If this is done it will be done on virtually extinct animals and pets of the rich.
Cloned sperm are not true sperm. They lack the tail to allow movement up the fallopian tubes and can't penetrate cell membrane to fertilize. All they are good for is in vitro techniques.
Having sperm reproductively selve has been attempted but never was very successful. The gametes produced had a poor survivability and low motility compared to sperm from meiosis. The selved sperm had to be helped out with energy sources (ATP, GTP) and other active metabolic support to let them form cell membranes etc. The bull just doesn't provide the sperm but his own QA department as well...
Using a cell sorter to get a few sloughed cells dispersed in the semen seems silly to me. I would extract spermatids and spermatocytes, develop a protocol to replicate them in vitro and then develop the applied development biology to get spermatozoa. I can use biology to get rid of the bad copies etc. To make this pay you would have to pay a large some of money per cow ($ 1,000's) and get some volume to keep a trained team together. If this is done it will be done on virtually extinct animals and pets of the rich.
simtal
Well-known member
chiangus said:
could you clone a sire from semen?
farmboy
Well-known member
simtal said:
no. its been discussed. HOWEVER if the bull shed some skin cells from his <cowboy> into some semen it could be done
Show Heifer
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From what I have been told, the technology is there to take an cloned embryo from "super duper defective bull" , and REMOVE the genetic defect from the embryo, then finish the "incubation". Pretty cool huh?
simtal
Well-known member
I guess thats better than the alternative of aborting mid stage recips with affected calves
Showgirl,
Gene therapy is to put it mildly not used to fix common genetic defects such as PH for example because it is expensive, not always effective and in most cases the needed fix is not understood.
Gene therapy for animals will be done as a spin off of that done for humans.
By the way if you have a super duper defective bull he is not super duper, merely defective. If an animal can win a popularity contest ran by humans means nothing in the long term if the animals are not functional (i.e. won't ) Spending thousands to get an animal functional says you will tolerate this in all your animals. A better course of action is to bite the bullet and cull the animal.
Gene therapy is to put it mildly not used to fix common genetic defects such as PH for example because it is expensive, not always effective and in most cases the needed fix is not understood.
Gene therapy for animals will be done as a spin off of that done for humans.
By the way if you have a super duper defective bull he is not super duper, merely defective. If an animal can win a popularity contest ran by humans means nothing in the long term if the animals are not functional (i.e. won't ) Spending thousands to get an animal functional says you will tolerate this in all your animals. A better course of action is to bite the bullet and cull the animal.
herefordfootball
Well-known member
Mark H said:
Its Show Heifer, not showgirl. I dont want to sound rude but if you're going to address someone specificly you should get their name right so some else doesnt think you're talking to them.
Chris
Show Heifer
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(Mark H.
Cloning wasn't common until about 3 years ago, so "gene therepy" is just around the corner. It can be done today. Right now. Two experts in the field told me that. Yes, it would be expensive, as was cloning a few years ago. Heck it was 50,000 or more a few short years ago, and now it is down to what, maybe 15,000?
While discussing TH/PHA with a dr. I ask if it was possible to remove the defective gene and make a "free" animal. His reply was "Yes." But it would have to be from a clone if you wanted a clean version of (for example) heatwave. Can't tell ya the details, but that was his reply.
And you are 100% right about "super duper defective bull" being nothing but defective, but many on this board will disagree with you and me on that. In fact, they do not refer to them as "defective" at all. And again, you are correct to say to "bite the bullet and cull the animal".... but then again, why did they clone "heatwave"? I mean, he is defective. (No, I do not use heatwave, or any other carrier bull for that matter, and I sold all my carrier critters to slaughter, so trust me, I am 100% in agreement with you on this!)
Herefordfootball: I am flattered he called me "girl"!! He must not know my age!!! ;D
Cloning wasn't common until about 3 years ago, so "gene therepy" is just around the corner. It can be done today. Right now. Two experts in the field told me that. Yes, it would be expensive, as was cloning a few years ago. Heck it was 50,000 or more a few short years ago, and now it is down to what, maybe 15,000?
While discussing TH/PHA with a dr. I ask if it was possible to remove the defective gene and make a "free" animal. His reply was "Yes." But it would have to be from a clone if you wanted a clean version of (for example) heatwave. Can't tell ya the details, but that was his reply.
And you are 100% right about "super duper defective bull" being nothing but defective, but many on this board will disagree with you and me on that. In fact, they do not refer to them as "defective" at all. And again, you are correct to say to "bite the bullet and cull the animal".... but then again, why did they clone "heatwave"? I mean, he is defective. (No, I do not use heatwave, or any other carrier bull for that matter, and I sold all my carrier critters to slaughter, so trust me, I am 100% in agreement with you on this!)
Herefordfootball: I am flattered he called me "girl"!! He must not know my age!!! ;D
Showgirl,
Do the two experts you talked to run their own labs working on this very issue? In other words are they funded to the tens of millions of dollars per year and have a huge staff of grad students and post docs to do and publish this work? If not, their claims are highly suspect. We do not have all the basic knowledge needed to use a virus as a vector (for example) and change an allele on a given loci we want reliabily. Some work was done on Tay Sachs a few years ago using a virus vector to correct the defective allele. It did not reliably do this; in other words it was an ineffective treatment.
When your two PhDs state it is possible it is is more like the typical university professors view of research: Fund me and I will study it and perhaps come up with a solution. Bring a research contract to these two and see if they will sign guaranteeing a viable clinical treatment in X number of years for a given amount of funding.
The pure research world is very different from mine, namely applied research, where we are judged by fielding advanced commercialized products. This makes applied researchers risk adverse and will only make financial risks if the basic science is complete. You can fail in the lab but clinically it is unacceptable. If this treatment happen it is many years away since it hasn't entered trials for the required FDA approvals. Once the basic research is completed in a few years then the long journey of getting a commerically available effective treatment will begin but not before then.
Do the two experts you talked to run their own labs working on this very issue? In other words are they funded to the tens of millions of dollars per year and have a huge staff of grad students and post docs to do and publish this work? If not, their claims are highly suspect. We do not have all the basic knowledge needed to use a virus as a vector (for example) and change an allele on a given loci we want reliabily. Some work was done on Tay Sachs a few years ago using a virus vector to correct the defective allele. It did not reliably do this; in other words it was an ineffective treatment.
When your two PhDs state it is possible it is is more like the typical university professors view of research: Fund me and I will study it and perhaps come up with a solution. Bring a research contract to these two and see if they will sign guaranteeing a viable clinical treatment in X number of years for a given amount of funding.
The pure research world is very different from mine, namely applied research, where we are judged by fielding advanced commercialized products. This makes applied researchers risk adverse and will only make financial risks if the basic science is complete. You can fail in the lab but clinically it is unacceptable. If this treatment happen it is many years away since it hasn't entered trials for the required FDA approvals. Once the basic research is completed in a few years then the long journey of getting a commerically available effective treatment will begin but not before then.
Show Heifer
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doug, they have their own labs. Sorry to disappoint you.
Its your story, I guess you can tell it.
Its your story, I guess you can tell it.
knabe
Well-known member
Mark H said:
extracting fat cells to get stem cells seemed silly too. gotta be other stuff in there.
knabe
Well-known member
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-create-testtube-sperm-1736207.html
perhaps sex for any species should just be illegal. there must be some government agency who knows how many of what we need.
perhaps sex for any species should just be illegal. there must be some government agency who knows how many of what we need.
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