Sulfer Toxicity - MERGED TOPICS

[Sir Loin]

Luck,
I would like to discuss this case with you.
Do you agree with the below statements?

You can diagnose PEM by the symptoms but can only confirm your diagnoses by a necropsy.

In the Walmart case, no necropsy is possible, so you have to rely on the symptoms to determine why these animals were in the condition they were in.


Note the feed was not tested and “
“The number of cases of sulfur-induced PEM has increased dramatically in the past few years “
SL
Sulfur-induced polioencephalomalacia in a herd of rotationally grazed beef cattle
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC340301/

 

[Sir Loin]

Yes, Polioencephalomalacia can cause death!  I see it from time to time.

Distiller's grain products - whether from a 'fuel' ethanol plant or a whiskey distillery or brewery - are a good feed supplement which can be fed to cattle. 
Yes, sulfur content of some byproduct/coproduct feeds, like DDG and CGF, must be considered - but only in the context of TOTAL DIETARY SULFUR; If water sources contain high sulfates, forages contain significant S content, then one must also consider the potential additive effect of feeding these materials.

Have I seen PEM in cattle which were fed distiller's grain products in an improper manner?  Yes.
But I've also seen PEM - and more frequently, I might add - in cattle which were on a high-grain ration, with NO distiller's grain or corn gluten feed. 
Additionally, there are numerous documented, published cases of cattle grazing, with no grain supplement, which developed PEM as a result of excessively high sulfate levels in their drinking water.
Sulfur is not the sole cause of polioencephalomalacia; merely one component which must be considered.
Excessive fermentable carbohydrate, excessive copper, excessive selenium - and many other components can cause issues, but that doesn't mean that one should eschew all feeding of grains or mineral supplementation. [/quote]

I am in total agreement with you, except on this one point.

whether from a 'fuel' ethanol plant or a whiskey distillery or brewery - are a good feed supplement which can be fed to cattle.

As you have combined “food grade” and ' Industrial grade “ manufactures, I disagree.

Had you limited your remarks to just food grade manufacturing, I would be in total agreement with you, as sulfur is not used in the manufacturing and food grade which comes under FDA regulations, where as industrial grade does not and sulfur is added in the manufacturing process.
Therefor that is why Ethanol Magazine itself, and cost to coast universities warn of the sulfur content when using industrial grade by-products.
Do you agree?

Respectfully
SL

PS: Very impressive resume! I only wish I had had your opportunity. I had the chance once, but just couldn't grasp the goal ring, or I would be a nittany.

 

[ejoe326]

I'm confused as to why this seems to be so confusing.  Sulfur is a well known potential issue.

You test what you feed and add a balancer if needed.  Adjust your ration as needed for growth and I am not sure how this is any different than any other feed that has a potential for problem.

 

[Sir Loin]

Ejoe,

You test what you feed and add a balancer if needed.

Here is the problem.
When you buy DDG or DDGS in bulk there is no analysis sheet that comes with it to determine what the sulfur content is. And each load can be different.
I tried my darndist to get one from A E Staley and was told to have it anilized as all lods are different.
You would have to have each load tested to do as you have stated, Cost: $100 results in 4 days.

The issue is that some ethanol plants clean with sulfuric acid, and each batch of DDGs could contain anywhere from 0.4% to 1% sulfur,” she says.

With maximum diet sulfur levels for cattle suggested at 0.3-0.4%, in the right scenario, adding a supplemental feed could quickly surpass even a well-adjusted cow’s ability to avoid toxicity.

http://beefmagazine.com/pasture-range/combating-sulfur-toxicity-range-cattle

And the same is true if you buy any feed in bags as  it no longer list the sulfur contained there in on the tag, as it did in the past. And everyone knows there is some in it!
And if the ingredients lists corn by-products or grain by-produces you can pretty well guess there is some DDG or DDGS in it as it is cheap and high in protein.
So you can't figure sulfur content of total diet either way you buy it.
Do you follow my reasoning?
SL

 

[ejoe326]

We feed and have fed DDGs for quite some time as we're close to 2 ethanol plants.

Have you worked with ruminant nutritionist on your diets?  Are you feeding feedlot cattle or cows?  How many?

I'm not sure why you wouldn't test each load especially when you're concerned.  And again the balancer is really important.

I don't think it's a given there are DDGS in everything.  If there is a concern have the bagged feed tested too.  We do know what the content of the TMR is on sulfur.  When ingredients change it's tested and not just for sulfur. 

I see sulfur as one of the pieces of the feed management puzzle.  It was in the 90s when I participated in gluten and sulfur studies.  It is not a new issue and I thought this was pretty well known.

 

[BTDT]

sir lion - I do not know how to do the fancy "in quote" thing so hope you follow this.

Plan ahead if the test takes 4 days to get results.
Use another lab, I test my feed for $38.
Either test the feed and use balancer as was suggested OR do not feed DDG's. It really isn't that complicated.
Can you follow my reasonings?

 

[Sir Loin]

Is your steer suffering from sulfur toxicity? As there have been more cases reported lately.

The National Research Council guidelines indicate that a 533 kg crossbred cow consuming 11.14 kg of feed daily (approximately 2% body weight) would have a maximum tolerated daily dose of 44.6 g of sulfur

With maximum diet sulfur levels for cattle suggested at 0.3-0.4%, in the right scenario, adding a supplemental feed could quickly surpass even a well-adjusted cow’s ability to avoid toxicity.
The issue is that some ethanol plants clean with sulfuric acid, and each batch of DDGs could contain anywhere from 0.4% to 1% sulfur,”

http://beefmagazine.com/pasture-range/combating-sulfur-toxicity-range-cattle
In my area ( SE Tenn ) when pastured fed ( water, pasture and hay only ) my cows receive around .3% of sulfur in their daily intake.
So in my area the  math goes like this when supplemental feeding is done. 3 + 4 =7% and 3 + 1.0 = 1.3.%
And logic tells me if I do any supplemental feeding, I “ could quickly surpass even a well-adjusted cow’s ability to avoid toxicity”.
And that is for a “ well-adjusted cow “.What do you think a ,7% – 1.3% does to a non- well-adjusted calf, that has been just weaned, placed on water, pasture, hay and feed at a rate of 2% of his body weight, as recommended .
Why is sulfur in your steer's diet important to you?
A. Excess sulfur in a steer's diet can cause a multitude of problem From dull looking hair to death. In between those two ends are, compromised immune system, slow weight gain, poor disposition, lameness, hoof loss and many others.
I suggest, if you are doing any supplemental feeding ( other than water, pasture and hay ) of your steer, you should determine your steer's dietary intake of sulfur. 
SL

 

[BTDT]

<deadhorse>

 

[Sir Loin]

Special Report: Lost hooves, dead cattle before Merck halted Zilmax sales

(Reuters) - The U.S. beef industry's dependence on the muscle-building drug Zilmax began unraveling here, on a sweltering summer day, in the dusty cattle pens outside a Tyson Foods Inc slaughterhouse in southeastern Washington state.
As cattle trailers that had traveled up to four hours in 95-degree heat began to unload, 15 heifers and steers hobbled down the ramps on August 5, barely able to walk. The reason: The animals had lost their hooves, according to U.S. Department of Agriculture documents reviewed by Reuters. The documents show the 15 animals were destroyed.
The next day, the hottest day of the month, two more animals with missing hooves arrived by truck. Again, the animals were destroyed, the documents show.
The animals' feet were "basically coming apart," said Keith Belk, a professor of animal science at Colorado State University. Belk said he reviewed photos of the lame cattle, though he declined to say who showed them to him.
The 17 animals had a factor in common, according to an examination of U.S. government documents and interviews with people who had direct knowledge of the events. In the weeks before the cattle were shipped to Tyson's slaughterhouse, outside the city limits of Pasco, all had been fed Merck & Co Inc's profit-enhancing animal feed additive, Zilmax.
The day after the hoofless animals were euthanized on August 6, Tyson told its feedlot customers it would stop accepting Zilmax-fed cattle. After Reuters reported the existence of a videotape of apparently lame Zilmax-fed animals - shown by an official of meatpacking giant JBS USA LLC at a trade meeting in Colorado - Merck itself temporarily suspended sales of the drug in the U.S. and Canada. The rest of the nation's leading meatpackers soon followed Tyson, the largest U.S. meat processor.
Merck, in a statement to Reuters, stressed the safety of its product. It said the company investigates all reports of adverse reactions to its drugs, and did so after the deaths near Pasco.
"Several third-party experts were brought in to evaluate the situation, review the data and identify potential causes for the hoof issue," Merck's statement said. "The findings from the investigation showed that the hoof loss was not due to the fact these animals had received Zilmax."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/30/us-zilmax-merck-cattle-special-report-idUSBRE9BT0NV20131230

As I have seen first hand, cattle lose their hoofs when fed large doses of sulfur, I'm inclined to believe Merck.
I believe the physical strain on the hoofs from loading, transportation and unloading is what caused the weaken hoofs to come off. And I further believe the weakness of the hoofs was caused by high levels of sulfur in their diet.

The only other reason I can come up with is:
Hooves are made of keratin and water solutions of urea can dissolve keratin. Urine is a solution of urea in water, so if the feedlot cattle stand for a long time in a hoof-deep mire made wet by urine, it may dissolve their hooves.
But of course, that is only my opinion.
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

BTDT,
Re:

sir lion - I do not know how to do the fancy "in quote" thing so hope you follow this.

What I do is cut and paste what I want to quote to my “ MS word “ and type [*quote] in front of it and [*/quote] behind it. WITH OUT the *.

Re:

Plan ahead if the test takes 4 days to get results.
Use another lab, I test my feed for $38.
Either test the feed and use balancer as was suggested OR do not feed DDG's. It really isn't that complicated.
Can you follow my reasonings?

Sure can, but you can't send a sample until after the delivery is made, now can you.
Re:

OR do not feed DDG's.

That is impossible as it is in every feed that is being produced today.
That is why they do not include sulfur in the analysis, if they even provide one.
And believe me, I have checked every feed bag in all the suppliers I use, and sulfur is not listed.
And that is on both cattle and horse feed.

As I see, the only way around it is to buy raw materials and grind my own feed.
SL

 

[hamburgman]

Sir Loin welcome to cattle feeding issues that showed up 8 plus years ago. 

Testing distillers is tough because of the huge amount of variation from truck to truck even from the same plant. 

Remember Histophilus Somni causes the same symptoms and there are strains out there now that commercial vaccines are not protective against.

What did you use to treat your polio cows?  I use thiamine IV and oxytetracycline, then give thiamine sq 3-4x a day afterwards.

 

[CAB]

The last feed that I bought was back to cracked corn + protein supplement B/C it was cheaper than the DDG mix that I have been buying for the last several years. Cheaper & better IMO.

 

[Sir Loin]

Ejoe326,
I have feed many different DDG many times over my life, including brewery grain,  to dairy cattle, cow/calf operations and feedlots and never had a problem.
BUT, they were all from a food grade plant. NOT an industrial grade plant.
And there lies the problem.
If I knew which plant ( food grade ) it was coming from I wouldn't hesitate to feed it.
As they are FDA regulated and do not/can not use sulfur to clean the mash, which makes it perfectly safe to use.

What has happened is food grade plants have added a industrial plant and reuse the food grade mash to make industrial grade.

Here is a list of distillers who now make both food grade and industrial grade.
The food grade being sugar/starch and the industrial grade being ethanol.
So how would one know from which side of the plant the DDG is coming from?
SL
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/plants/listplants/US/Existing/Sugar-Starch/

 

[Sir Loin]

Hamburgman,

Re:

What did you use to treat your polio cows?  I use thiamine IV and oxytetracycline, then give thiamine sq 3-4x a day afterwards.

That all sounds familyer.
I had 4 different vets look at 10 and they all diagnosed it as polio.
The first vet I tried gave me 4 syringes to use on one. I do remember him saying it was thiamine and something else. Gave it for 4 days. It didn't do much so I dispatched it along with the 9 others that were in the same condition.
The next one I had was died and I had the vet do a necropsy on it and he sent the samples off.
Results by phone. I can't tell you what killed him but I can tell you what did not. PEM was not on his list, although he did diagnose it as polio.

The next one next one that died I had another vet do a necropsy on and when he opended him he found the liver had grown to the inside of the stomic wall and that there were stirn like fibers going from the small intestines to other organ that should not be there. He sent off samples.
Resame as previous vet.

Nect one. This was one of my own. Holstein steer.
Same syptoms.
Another vet. Have him up in 24 hrs, I'm giving him IV cocktail, it's thiamine, vitamins and antibiotics.
24 hrs pass, he is still down.

At this point I was starting to get just a little bit pizzed off.

So I took him to UTK where they uthinized him and did a necropcy on him.

FINAL DIAGNOSIS
Emaciation
Endoparasitism
Dermatophilosis

COMMENT
There are no significant gross or histologic lesions (necrosis, inflammation,
infection, etc.) in the brain (or other organs examined) that explain the
neurologic signs described clinically. Neither bacteria (such as Listeria)
nor any other infectious agent are identified in the brain.

Eimeria were seen histologically within the intestinal tract and large
numbers of oocysts were identified with a fecal float. One differential to
consider, that cannot be proven, would be the syndrome termed "nervous
coccidiosis". Neurologic signs have been associated with acute coccidiosis in
calves. The underlying pathogenesis is incompletely understood, but it
usually occurs during wet seasons and is associated with high mortality.
Proper housing, hygiene, ventilation, and treatment of calves particularly
during susceptible times of year should help decrease the morbidity and
mortality due to coccidiosis. It is unknown whether or not this animal was on
an appropriate diet, but there are multiple parasites identified in this
animal that could have contributed to poor body condition.

Hyperkeratosis and epidermal hyperplasia on the dorsum are consistent with
"rain scald" or infection with the bacteria Dermatophilus congolensis. This
is considered an incidental finding. [/quote]





Which was total BS as far as  Emaciation Endoparasitism went.
At this point is when I first started smelling a woodpussy in the wood pile.
I knew of the rain scald issue.
SL

 

[grandchamp58]

You've posted this same idea on 3 times...

 

[cowman 52]

There is another ranchers web site where cattle problems, cures, sights, sounds, good and bad can be discussed.  One gentleman(????)  has post after post after post that BSE did this, BSE did that,  BSE is here,  there, under the bed, in the water, in every cattle herd in xxx, every cattle trailer in YYYYY.
Your other web site handle ain't FLOUNDER is it??????? <alien>

 

[RyanChandler]

So what's your point?  What are you looking to accomplish?

 

[dlt in mo]

Maybe you need a nutritionist.  We have fed a ration that contained DDGs or gluten for several years & have excellent results. 

 

[Sir Loin]

Dit in mo
Re:

Maybe you need a nutritionist.

Yes, all 3 of us whohad problems, have been down that route, and they were no help.
All we got was a ½ hour  regurgitation of the same sales pitch about proper nutrition that they gave us when they sold us on using it.

 

We have fed a ration that contained DDGs or gluten for several years & have excellent results.

And what is the sulfur content in your ration ?
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

Your other web site handle ain't FLOUNDER is it?

No, but I heard that name mentioned on the CT board.
But he was gone before I got there.

  So what's your point?  What are you looking to accomplish?

To make others in the cattle industry aware of the dangers of feeding industrial grade byproducts.
And to improve the image of our industry in the eyes of the general public, so they will feel comfortable and safe again while consuming our product.

IMO, in the eyes of the public one beef recall can undo all the good PR of 100, or more,  cattle shows.
All I am doing is presenting a preponderance of the evidence. Whether you accept it or not is up to you.
I believe ethanol is the guilty party.
If you have any scientific evidence to prove otherwise, you are more then welcome to present it.
Note: Testimonials are not evidence.
I would love to be proven wrong.
SL