Sun Country Bull Sale catalog now online

[sue]

The best set of bulls they've had on test yet!
[/

You should post some of your bulls.  i like the first calf by Buster 2nd. Send me your scan data when it ready.

Sue

 

[SeannyT]

For a 62lb birthweight the Buster 2nd son is really growing. Not sure when scanning is happening but will keep you posted.

 

[sue]

For a 62lb birthweight the Buster 2nd son is really growing. Not sure when scanning is happening but will keep you posted.

A Live healthy calf has a way of growing?

 

[uluru]

bmp

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I havent picked a mist son yet-they are all good Lot 35 and the lot 6 calf caught my eye for overall performance and mass-Leroy and Star P matrix are really consistent-wish there was matrix semen here O0

 

[sue]

Creekside Stand off  falls in the Breeds top 10% for Calving Ease (+3.0)...plenty of things to shout about so WHY NOT PRINT IT????    No where in the catalog is this written. Pretty sure many of the Reference sires have a few things to print other then the  footnotes . The numbers are there just not indicated.
When you're selling sally the show heifer then print the copy but danny wants to read the data. okay

I am taking a alot of extra time to sort through the bull's epds online and it shoud already be in the catalog.  When the added sheet is posted please include all of the information. Individual ratios etc.

Breed average:  CE -1.5  BW +2.2  WW 14.3  YW  23.4  Milk 2.5.

Now is not the time to be half assed in shorthorn. the beef business needs us :-*



But based on the pictures I would have to agree a nice set of bulls <beer>

 

[worthabit]

To JIT, urulu and others, can you register durham reds in Canada? Where would you do it and how. Are the bulls you are selling have papers? Is there a growing market for these bulls as well as heifers and what type/breed of cows are these bulls suited for?  Does it matter if the cow is red angus or shorthorn? A lot of questions but hope you can help. Thanks.

 

[justintime]

To JIT, urulu and others, can you register durham reds in Canada? Where would you do it and how. Are the bulls you are selling have papers? Is there a growing market for these bulls as well as heifers and what type/breed of cows are these bulls suited for?  Does it matter if the cow is red angus or shorthorn? A lot of questions but hope you can help. Thanks.

The two Durham Red bulls are in the process of being registered in the Durham Red herd book in the American Shorthorn Association. We would have had it done before now, but in order to be registered as a Durham Red, the bulls need to have a yearling scrotal measurement. That will be happening this week and the info will be forwarded to Omaha. That should complete the info. needed to get their papers. Both these bulls are very outstanding individuals. I can certainly see why Durham Reds are gaining popularity.

 

[justintime]

I havent picked a mist son yet-they are all good Lot 35 and the lot 6 calf caught my eye for overall performance and mass-Leroy and Star P matrix are really consistent-wish there was matrix semen here O0

Mark, There will be some Matrix semen at Hawkeye Breeders, Adel, IA in the next two weeks. It is priced at $30 per straw ( multiples of 5) and $10 for each certificate.

 

[worthabit]

To JIT, urulu and others, can you register durham reds in Canada? Where would you do it and how. Are the bulls you are selling have papers? Is there a growing market for these bulls as well as heifers and what type/breed of cows are these bulls suited for?  Does it matter if the cow is red angus or sho :-\rthorn? A lot of questions but hope you can help. Thanks.

The two Durham Red bulls are in the process of being registered in the Durham Red herd book in the American Shorthorn Association. We would have had it done before now, but in order to be registered as a Durham Red, the bulls need to have a yearling scrotal measurement. That will be happening this week and the info will be forwarded to Omaha. That should complete the info. needed to get their papers. Both these bulls are very outstanding individuals. I can certainly see why Durham Reds are gaining popularity.

Thanks for that JIT but you didn't answer any of my questions! Could you take another stab at it :-\

 

[justintime]

Creekside Stand off  falls in the Breeds top 10% for Calving Ease (+3.0)...plenty of things to shout about so WHY NOT PRINT IT????    No where in the catalog is this written. Pretty sure many of the Reference sires have a few things to print other then the  footnotes . The numbers are there just not indicated.
When you're selling sally the show heifer then print the copy but danny wants to read the data. okay

I am taking a alot of extra time to sort through the bull's epds online and it shoud already be in the catalog.  When the added sheet is posted please include all of the information. Individual ratios etc.

Breed average:  CE -1.5   BW +2.2  WW 14.3   YW  23.4  Milk 2.5.

Now is not the time to be half assed in shorthorn. the beef business needs us :-*

Sue, I am speaking just for myself here as I do not own Creekside Standoff, who is the bull you referred to in this response. I guess I am still a little hesitant to tell anyone that the EPDs are totally accurate. Last year, the EPDs we got for our bulls were totally unexplainable, and we decided if we could not understand them ourselves, we should not have anyone looking at them. For example, one contributor had 6 bulls that were sired by 5 different sires. These 6 bulls also had dams that were sired by 5 different sires. The EPDS generated for all 6 bulls were exactly the same, for all traits. I had 3 ET full sib bulls and their numbers were totally different. The BW EPDs for these three bulls ranged from 1.7 to 8.5. The same thing happened for all the other EPDs ( WW, YW, and Milk)

Uluru and I worked on this for a long time, and we came to the conclusion that all the Canadian data was lost when the ASA moved their EPD work to Colorado State University. The EPDs generated this year, seem to be much more "believable" but I guess I still have some concerns whether they are accurate enough on our cattle. I am hoping that time will make me feel more comfortable with these numbers. As they say, once burnt, always shy.

I was just looking at the EPDs generated on some of my cows. One of my best young producers has one of the lowest milk EPDs in all of my females. Without any doubt, this female is the heaviest milking female I own. I know that more data on more calves should help this correct itself, but right now, the numbers are not all of the story.



But based on the pictures I would have to agree a nice set of bulls <beer>

 

[sue]

Creekside Stand off  falls in the Breeds top 10% for Calving Ease (+3.0)...plenty of things to shout about so WHY NOT PRINT IT????    No where in the catalog is this written. Pretty sure many of the Reference sires have a few things to print other then the  footnotes . The numbers are there just not indicated.
When you're selling sally the show heifer then print the copy but danny wants to read the data. okay

I am taking a alot of extra time to sort through the bull's epds online and it shoud already be in the catalog.  When the added sheet is posted please include all of the information. Individual ratios etc.

Breed average:  CE -1.5   BW +2.2  WW 14.3   YW  23.4  Milk 2.5.

Now is not the time to be half assed in shorthorn. the beef business needs us :-*

Sue, I am speaking just for myself here as I do not own Creekside Standoff, who is the bull you referred to in this response. I guess I am still a little hesitant to tell anyone that the EPDs are totally accurate. Last year, the EPDs we got for our bulls were totally unexplainable, and we decided if we could not understand them ourselves, we should not have anyone looking at them. For example, one contributor had 6 bulls that were sired by 5 different sires. These 6 bulls also had dams that were sired by 5 different sires. The EPDS generated for all 6 bulls were exactly the same, for all traits. I had 3 ET full sib bulls and their numbers were totally different. The BW EPDs for these three bulls ranged from 1.7 to 8.5. The same thing happened for all the other EPDs ( WW, YW, and Milk)

Uluru and I worked on this for a long time, and we came to the conclusion that all the Canadian data was lost when the ASA moved their EPD work to Colorado State University. The EPDs generated this year, seem to be much more "believable" but I guess I still have some concerns whether they are accurate enough on our cattle. I am hoping that time will make me feel more comfortable with these numbers. As they say, once burnt, always shy.

I was just looking at the EPDs generated on some of my cows. One of my best young producers has one of the lowest milk EPDs in all of my females. Without any doubt, this female is the heaviest milking female I own. I know that more data on more calves should help this correct itself, but right now, the numbers are not all of the story.



But based on the pictures I would have to agree a nice set of bulls <beer>

Grant
You are absolutely right - if you cannot understand EPDs then dont bother printing them. You'll only look like an ass  when someone asks  a question?  My point and I used Creekside Standoff as an example is to print all of the reference sires information (epds). Frankly if you understood epds then you would INCLUDE CALVING EASE EPD.  THAT IS THE NUMBER BEFORE BEPD( Birth Weight ).

My personally feeling is Bob's sire group and Poplar Park sire group  (reference sires) are better numbered bulls then the Horseshoe Creek bulls?? So if you leave the Reference sire information out- it will only make Horseshoe look better? I feel like the numbers are pretty accurate since we updated and if you doubt it then just toss all of it.

 

[justintime]

To JIT, urulu and others, can you register durham reds in Canada? Where would you do it and how. Are the bulls you are selling have papers? Is there a growing market for these bulls as well as heifers and what type/breed of cows are these bulls suited for?  Does it matter if the cow is red angus or sho :-\rthorn? A lot of questions but hope you can help. Thanks.

The two Durham Red bulls are in the process of being registered in the Durham Red herd book in the American Shorthorn Association. We would have had it done before now, but in order to be registered as a Durham Red, the bulls need to have a yearling scrotal measurement. That will be happening this week and the info will be forwarded to Omaha. That should complete the info. needed to get their papers. Both these bulls are very outstanding individuals. I can certainly see why Durham Reds are gaining popularity.

Thanks for that JIT but you didn't answer any of my questions! Could you take another stab at it :-\

I am not an expert on Durham Red regulations but I do believe that you can use red angus females and a Shorthorn bull as well as vice versa. In order to register them you have to submit BW, WW, YW, scrotal at 1 year. They are finding favour in many commercial operations as another alternative to those looking for red, polled composite British genetics. Whether purebred breeders and breed associations like it or not, there is a major movement towards the use of composite breed bulls. In the past few years, composite bulls have been selling in many sales for excellent prices, and many of them out sell the purebred bulls. Anyone who does not use crossbreeding in a commercial operation is completely nuts. I do not know of anything else you can do to get a 15% advantage free. That is what hybrid vigor offers when two breeder are crossed. Another 4-5 % is also available by going to a three way cross.

Whether breed associations like it or not, I think the smart ones know what the future will hold in regards to composite breeding stock, and they are developing programs to allow breeders to design these cattle.

 

[vcsf]

Sue, I think that you are totally missing the point that Grant is trying to make.  There is a big difference between understanding what EPD's mean and being able to make any sense of the actual numbers that are generated.  I also think that it is foolish to try and promote a sire as being at the top of the breed for any trait when his EPD's have very low accuracy and are basically generated from parental data only with very very few progeny reported.

In an earlier post OH Breeder referred to Salute having a birth weight EPD of 8.2 with an accuracy of .94.  I don't know where he found these numbers but I doubt that he made them up so I assume that at some time they were correct but when I look up Salute today he is 7.2 for birth with an accuracy of .80.   I totally understand the numbers changing but the accuracy should never got lower only higher with more data reported.  This indicates to me that there definitely are problems with the Shorthorns system.

 

[justintime]

Here are the EPDs for our present herd sires:
                                 
                                                                             CE                         BW          WW        YW           Milk

Wolf Willow Major Leroy 1M                                        -1.8                       5.2           23            33           0
Star P Matrix 4N                                                           0.2                       0.7           22            38           3
HC Mist's Return 13R ET                                              0.2                       1.3           11            17            5
Saskvalley Pioneer 126P                                              -2.2                      3.1           20            28            2
HC Timeline 17T ET                                                       -6.6                      5.2          26            41            7
Hillside Leader                                                              -0.9                       1.2          14            17            1
HC FL Touchdown 123T ET                                           1.0                         0.7          12            19           0


I am using my own herd bulls to try to explain my uncertainty of the accuracy of the EPDs.   From these numbers, a person would assume that Star P Matrix 4N and HC Mist's Return 13R would be similar in calving ease as they both have CE EPDs of 0.2. This is totally wrong.They are not even in the same league.... not even in the same galaxy!! Mist's Return is the easiest calving sire we have ever used ... in over 100 years of breeding Shorthorns. While we have not had any issues calving Matrix, I would never use him on a heifer. My partners in Matrix has a few bigger BW calves from Matrix last year, but we did not, maybe because our Matrix calves arrived later in the spring than their's did. We are just starting to get our  Matrix calves this year, and so far all have been born unassisted. Our BWs are substantially lower this year from all sires so it may not be a good test.

Quite frankly, I do not think these numbers are accurate enough to use in making decisions. Not only are the CE and BW EPDs questionable, but I would also question some of the other growth and especially the milk epds ... at least from my experience in my herd.The milk EPDs make no sense at all, as do the CE EPDs.  Hopefully in time, I will see numbers that I can relate to without a bunch of questions arising.

If someone can explain why I should believe any of these EPDs, I would appreciate knowing what I am missing here. If I were to use these numbers to cull my herd bulls, two of the most important herd sires I have ever owned, would be gone in short order. The fact that some breeders are selecting their breeding stock based only on these numbers is really scary to me.

In the past few weeks I have spoken to three seperate breeders located all across North America, who purchased heifers bred to one of the best CE EPD bulls in the breed. All of these breeders told me the same story, and all had C section births. The birth weights I heard of from all these breeders ranged from 120 to 130lbs. One of these breeders purchased two heifers and both had c section births. This bull was promoted as a calving ease sire... based on his numbers. It is stories like this that really make me question the numbers even more. If someone can enlighten me and show me why I should believe the EPDs on my own herd bulls, let alone any other animals in the breed, please do so. It would be greatly appreciated as obviously I must be missing something.

 

[uluru]

Sue good point
They are recorded as what they are - correct or otherwise?

EPDs for Mcbeth/Uluru bulls - Reference sires for the Sun Country sale

                      CE      BW    WW    YW    Milk    MW    MCE
Ruffian          2.4      1.6    23      40      4      15      5.2
Sovereign      2.1    -0.7      8        21    4        8      1.4
Standoff        3.0    0.2      13        14    2        9        0.7

I believe as more history is being recorded or recaptured on Canadian bred Shorthorns the information is getting better.
The output is only as good as the input on any computer system

worthabit

My bull Uluru 25W is registered on the CSA/CLRC as a x bred in the Shorthorn Registry X-(CAN)Z97832
I have a paper for him as such
He cannot  be registered as a Durham Red in Canada under the CSA as I do not believe that designation exists in Canada and he is consiidered as a Shorthorn Influenced animal or as some people up here use the US designation of Shorthorn Plus.
He is really a x bred in Canada - 50% Shorthorn and 50% Red Angus.
 
He is also in the temporary registration file on the ASA xCM526760
and when we get the scrotal measurement, DNA and TH test info to the ASA he can then go into the ASA Durham Red registration file and we will hopefully get the ASA Durham Red papers
He has projected EPDs from the submitted BW, WW and YW
They are CE n/a, BW 0.7, WW 14, YW 22, Milk 1, MW 8, MCE n/a 

I think JIT is correct when he says that you can have a Shorthorn/Red Angus cross of either sex
I only have two Durham Reds in my herd - 25W and a heifer that I bought from sue.
I have a Durham Red pedigree paper for her from the ASA that sue arranged for before I picked her up in Michigan.
I did not register her in Canada at the CSA however, she would be able to be papered in the CSA as a x bred just like 25W is at the present.

sue would know more about the ASA regulations for registering a Durham Red in the US than I.
 

 

[worthabit]

Thanks, urulu, that helps me out.

 

[uluru]

bmp
If you haven't looked at the online catalogue yet take a look.

 

[RFL]

Hi JIT and Uluru:

Bulls really look good.  Looks like there's a good assortment to fit
every need. Looks like a really solid set and they seem to be getting better
every year.

I hope to get up to Kisbey Sale day to see you and the bulls. Can't wait to see
how some of the bulls I saw last fall have developed,especially lots 15 and 33.

Oh, JIT I also wanted to let you know one of my recips just calved to
Salute X Presto ( a full sib to Timeline). Dark roan polled heifer, 89#  built right
and calved easy with lots of vigor. I couldn't be happier.  No complaints here about Salute.
One more full sister yet to come any day.

 

[Hilltop]

Hi JIT and Uluru:


I hope to get up to Kisbey Sale day to see you and the bulls. Can't wait to see
how some of the bulls I saw last fall have developed,especially lots 15 and 33.

I am guessing that lot 33 could be the best bull but maybe I am showing just a little favourtism,LOL!!!