I have a Sunseeker Heifer that I will be taking to MN State Fair that has very swollen back legs particularily on the right leg. Yes, I understand some of this is in her genetics as I know some Sunseeker heifers really breakdown, but I dont think this is the full problem. Yes I should have listened to my parents when they said she was a market heifer. As a matter of fact I showed her as a market heifer at one show I attended and won my class, but I was also reserve champ at our county fair in the breeding heifer class. Her legs are also very straight which I understand is genetics as well I just dont feel this is all of her problem. The question I have though is if anyone would know what to use that would help the swelling. We used a product at our county fair that the vet recommended which I believe was called bute (????). This was a product used on horses. We also iced the one leg before show and painted the leg black as she is a chrome colored calf and this was below the flank and she didn't look quite so straight then. The combination of the two seemed to help but she seems to have the problem almost every other day. Any other suggestions??? Thanks for your help.
Sunseeker Heifer with swollen back legs
- Thread starter BABYTEX
- Start date
Help Support Steer Planet:
Cowboy
Well-known member
Dear young person -- you might want to check around before you ever try and use your vet's reccomendation again for that drug. It is by all mean sillegal in cattle -- it can and will get you banned if it is ever found in a true market animal. Ask around to those who know, there has been huge fines and forfitures due to that drug alone. Now on to your problem.
If your hfr is as you describe, it is deffinately in the genes for that pedigree. It will hardly ever get better the older she gets, and often times will get so bad she wil start to swing her legs or can't stand on both of them at once. She may have a mild case of Spastic Pariesis -- which will always get worse as they get older -- always.
She may be a good hfr, but if you think about her future as a cow, it might be pretty shaky. I guess this is where you do some soul searching and if she is big enough, get her ready for the market class, that will probably be where she will do the best, most of those are terminal though. Stll might be your best bet, and I am sorry for the gloom, but these kind just hardly ever get better.
Your icing will help some with the swelling, but just long enough to get her thru the ring each time. I won't try and give you drug rememdies, but for sure do not go in the ring with BUTE in her, or you will be done for!
Good luck -- sorry for not more help
Terry
If your hfr is as you describe, it is deffinately in the genes for that pedigree. It will hardly ever get better the older she gets, and often times will get so bad she wil start to swing her legs or can't stand on both of them at once. She may have a mild case of Spastic Pariesis -- which will always get worse as they get older -- always.
She may be a good hfr, but if you think about her future as a cow, it might be pretty shaky. I guess this is where you do some soul searching and if she is big enough, get her ready for the market class, that will probably be where she will do the best, most of those are terminal though. Stll might be your best bet, and I am sorry for the gloom, but these kind just hardly ever get better.
Your icing will help some with the swelling, but just long enough to get her thru the ring each time. I won't try and give you drug rememdies, but for sure do not go in the ring with BUTE in her, or you will be done for!
Good luck -- sorry for not more help
Terry
Well will wonders never cease - cowboy talking about illegal use of drugs !
Bute (aka butazolidin) is a nonsteroidal anti inflammatory approved for use in horses and dogs
the extra label use of Bute in lactating dairy cows is forbidden; the use of bute in other classes of cattle is frowned upon and strongly discouraged but not illegal
the reason is that bute in small amounts can cause aplastic anemia in people (ie your bone marrow doesn't work - you have no red cells, white cells or platelets - bad deal)
this heifer will likely not improve and will likely continue to get worse and her prognosis for making a cow is slim but before you decide to send her to market you need to know the meat withhold for bute - to legally prescribe it your vet should have labeled it with (among other things) instructions and a meat withhold. If he /she did not give you a withhold you could be in a world of hurt if you want to ship her - getting caught with a violative residue is not a good thing
you don't say what joint is swollen or if it is the whole leg - nor do you say how much or how often you are giving the bute - but as you say it isn't helping I would surely stop giving it
talk to your vet about other options that don't create residue issues - and it would be a good idea to never give your cattle anything unless you know exactly what it is, why you are giving it and what the withhold is
cold water, off concrete, deep bedding, and perhaps aspirin boluses - talk to your vet
Bute (aka butazolidin) is a nonsteroidal anti inflammatory approved for use in horses and dogs
the extra label use of Bute in lactating dairy cows is forbidden; the use of bute in other classes of cattle is frowned upon and strongly discouraged but not illegal
the reason is that bute in small amounts can cause aplastic anemia in people (ie your bone marrow doesn't work - you have no red cells, white cells or platelets - bad deal)
this heifer will likely not improve and will likely continue to get worse and her prognosis for making a cow is slim but before you decide to send her to market you need to know the meat withhold for bute - to legally prescribe it your vet should have labeled it with (among other things) instructions and a meat withhold. If he /she did not give you a withhold you could be in a world of hurt if you want to ship her - getting caught with a violative residue is not a good thing
you don't say what joint is swollen or if it is the whole leg - nor do you say how much or how often you are giving the bute - but as you say it isn't helping I would surely stop giving it
talk to your vet about other options that don't create residue issues - and it would be a good idea to never give your cattle anything unless you know exactly what it is, why you are giving it and what the withhold is
cold water, off concrete, deep bedding, and perhaps aspirin boluses - talk to your vet
Thanks for the great replies even though a little negative. She is swollen around the back knee area and it is more swollen around the left knee. The funny thing is the mother and sister never had problems and this is the second Sunseeker that I know of out of the mother. We did not notice real bad swelling until we hauled her to our county fair, which is only a 9 mile drive. We are thinking she may have been hurt in the trailer(?????). We have only used the bute once and this was after we got her out of the trailer at county fair. We called the vet right up and his office is right across from our fair grounds so we ran right over. We did notice a withholding on the tube but weren't too concerned as it was only once that it was used. I did ask my dad this morning and he thought it helped more than I even thought it helped. I have only shown this animal as a market animal once but my dad actually showed her once as a market animal. Do you know if these animals have problems getting bred? We bred her twice. The first time she was bred with Rocky Balboa and did not take. The second time we bred her with Rainmaker, which I am a little scared about but I wanted a possible Maine or MaineTainer and this was all we had left in the tank that was anything worth using. We share a tank with our neighbor who has about 1800 head of cattle mainly Angus and nothing worth using so I am risking this. We haven't seen her in heat and she should have been already. We will have her preg checked shortly but she is not quite 35-45 days out yet. We like to calf in March and April due to the cold MN winters so we bred in roughly third week in June and did not take and second week in July. Am I in big trouble breeding with Rainmaker? I am a little worried.
Bulldaddy
Well-known member
I think your plan for her to be a market animal was a good one since she has structure problems (very straight legs). If this is what caused the swelling then it will only get worse as she gets older and has a calf or two. Ask yourself if you really want to perpetuate this problem? Do you really want to take the chance that her calves will be the same way?
I think we are going to try the first calf and see what happens after that we will have to see. I just cant believe she would have these issues when the mother and sister had no structure problems that we are aware and from my understanding the mother has raised four nice calves thus far. Maybe something down the generation in the Sunseeker. I do appreciate all the comments good or bad!!! Would also appreciate any comments you have on Rainmaker. We are hoping to at least get something decent for a Market Heifer or Steer probably only for our county fair.
Cowboy
Well-known member
To my dear DL -- It is true, I did stop writting to you -- however it was NOT due to the contined discussions of illegal drug use -- but due to your dimeaner on almost every post. As your reply above -- you seemed to be really testy all the time, so I gave up and went on from there.
As far as the aforementioned BUTE, the drug I was thinking of was Phenolbutezone -- that may be a differnet offshoot of the one you mentioned. I stand corrected on it's legal status -- but still you have to admit, any true market animal sold for slaughter will test OUT of it is in the blood stream! Sadly, there are several if not many young people unable to show today due to behind the scenes people in thier lives giving these types of things to thier stock. The older youth may actually have known, but I seriously doubt alot of the really young ones ever did!
Also, as far as the original poster's hfr goes, yes -- these types of genetic problems are ofen times hidden well back in the pedigree -- as most will atest to, you can breed a cow to bull A this year and get a grand slam calf -- do it again the next year and you could get a crippled up mess. I have had it happen here on my own cows, and I know thier 10 generation pedigrees by heart. It happens, but when you do get one with problems, it will for sure not help you to keep her around, because eventually she will pass on that evil bug and it will never end!
Good luck to you and everything you do -- life is fun!
Terry
As far as the aforementioned BUTE, the drug I was thinking of was Phenolbutezone -- that may be a differnet offshoot of the one you mentioned. I stand corrected on it's legal status -- but still you have to admit, any true market animal sold for slaughter will test OUT of it is in the blood stream! Sadly, there are several if not many young people unable to show today due to behind the scenes people in thier lives giving these types of things to thier stock. The older youth may actually have known, but I seriously doubt alot of the really young ones ever did!
Also, as far as the original poster's hfr goes, yes -- these types of genetic problems are ofen times hidden well back in the pedigree -- as most will atest to, you can breed a cow to bull A this year and get a grand slam calf -- do it again the next year and you could get a crippled up mess. I have had it happen here on my own cows, and I know thier 10 generation pedigrees by heart. It happens, but when you do get one with problems, it will for sure not help you to keep her around, because eventually she will pass on that evil bug and it will never end!
Good luck to you and everything you do -- life is fun!
Terry
Cowboy said:
FYI - Bute = butazolidin = phenylbutazone
all these names and others refer to the same drug
Babytex - unless the vet labeled a withhold on the tube there would not be one listed as the drug is only approved for horses and dogs . I think you always need to be aware of the withhold and if your vet doesn't give it to you you need to ask -you also should make sure you know what your are giving to your cattle and why - doesn't matter how many times you give it you need to know the with hold - did you know that one dose of gentamicin requires an 18 month eithhold?
Show Heifer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2007
- Messages
- 2,221
Maybe someone needs to stop sugar coating it for you babytex. This heifer will more than likely NEVER make it to her first calf. She is a cripple. Her calf will carry her genetics, which will result in the same problem.
You had the right idea in making her a MARKET heifer, which means she should be slaughtered sooner rather than later. Your not in trouble for breeding her to rainmaker, because she will probably not make it that long. You are worrying about the wrong thing.
cowboy, I saw nowhere in DL post where she ask about you stopping writing her..... is that an "inside thing"?
DL, a vet, is correct that all mentioned is the same. She is also correct in the fact that any vet worth their license will ALWAYS put a withdrawl time on anything they "give you". Age is no excuse for "ignornance". If you are old enough to give a drug to an animal, if you are old enough to care for an animal, you should be old enough to realize anything you give a market animal can end up in the meat. If nothing else, the parents should have known, the problem is, many times it is the parents that is the problem. Again, ignorance is NOT an excuse. In our state, every exhibitor must sign a sheet of standards of care, which include drug withdrawl and care standards.
The reason you can "get a grand slam calf one year, and the next get a cripple" is because many of these animals are 3-6 way crosses, and there is no genetic predictability. Bred a 3 way cross to a 3 way cross and the possibilities are endless, with little chance of repeatability. Then throw in the probability that pedigrees get "mixed up" and that angus is actually an dirty heatwave, and that Dr.Who is actually a MOJO. Like a famous researcher once told me, "Searching for genetic defects sure would be easier if at least half of the pedigrees would be correct, but they are not."
I wish you luck babytex, but your chasing a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and let me tell ya, IT IS NOT THERE.
You had the right idea in making her a MARKET heifer, which means she should be slaughtered sooner rather than later. Your not in trouble for breeding her to rainmaker, because she will probably not make it that long. You are worrying about the wrong thing.
cowboy, I saw nowhere in DL post where she ask about you stopping writing her..... is that an "inside thing"?
DL, a vet, is correct that all mentioned is the same. She is also correct in the fact that any vet worth their license will ALWAYS put a withdrawl time on anything they "give you". Age is no excuse for "ignornance". If you are old enough to give a drug to an animal, if you are old enough to care for an animal, you should be old enough to realize anything you give a market animal can end up in the meat. If nothing else, the parents should have known, the problem is, many times it is the parents that is the problem. Again, ignorance is NOT an excuse. In our state, every exhibitor must sign a sheet of standards of care, which include drug withdrawl and care standards.
The reason you can "get a grand slam calf one year, and the next get a cripple" is because many of these animals are 3-6 way crosses, and there is no genetic predictability. Bred a 3 way cross to a 3 way cross and the possibilities are endless, with little chance of repeatability. Then throw in the probability that pedigrees get "mixed up" and that angus is actually an dirty heatwave, and that Dr.Who is actually a MOJO. Like a famous researcher once told me, "Searching for genetic defects sure would be easier if at least half of the pedigrees would be correct, but they are not."
I wish you luck babytex, but your chasing a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and let me tell ya, IT IS NOT THERE.
Again, I do appreciate the all of the comments good or bad but I think I will contact you after the first calf is born as we were hoping for a market animal anyway as this calf is very big muscled and should hopefully have a ripper steer or market heifer with hopefully some awesome markings. Yes it will no ripper Angus or Simmetal breeding heifer but that is not what I'm looking for.
One thing to think about that has not been mentioned (basically) - Is the choice you are making to breed this heifer fair to the heifer?
Is she in pain? Cattle as prey animals are masters at hiding pain and discomfort. By the time most people pick up discomfort or pain it is substantial
How can you tell if she is in pain or having discomfort? Does she lie down more than her contemporaries? Does she limp? Does she put more weight on one leg? Has she shifted more of her weight to the front? Does she drag one foot? Is she short strided on one side? Does she dog sit?
Because she is growing (gaining weight and size) and because you have bred her and hope she is pregnant (again gaining weight) will she become more uncomfortable as time goes on? Some animals with rear leg pain/discomfort will dog sit - dog sitting will put more pressure/weight in the rear of the abdominal cavity - this pressure/weight can lead to prolapsing of the vagina/rectum and post partum the uterus
So my question to you BT is - is what you plan to do with this heifer fair to the heifer? Does it negatively impact her welfare? Is it the right thing to do for the animal?
Is she in pain? Cattle as prey animals are masters at hiding pain and discomfort. By the time most people pick up discomfort or pain it is substantial
How can you tell if she is in pain or having discomfort? Does she lie down more than her contemporaries? Does she limp? Does she put more weight on one leg? Has she shifted more of her weight to the front? Does she drag one foot? Is she short strided on one side? Does she dog sit?
Because she is growing (gaining weight and size) and because you have bred her and hope she is pregnant (again gaining weight) will she become more uncomfortable as time goes on? Some animals with rear leg pain/discomfort will dog sit - dog sitting will put more pressure/weight in the rear of the abdominal cavity - this pressure/weight can lead to prolapsing of the vagina/rectum and post partum the uterus
So my question to you BT is - is what you plan to do with this heifer fair to the heifer? Does it negatively impact her welfare? Is it the right thing to do for the animal?
I hate to say it but if it were me I would treat this one of two ways, If she is bred then go ahead and take your chances with her as a "cow". I wouldnt. If she is open then poor the feed to her and turn her into a true market heifer. Very blunt I realize but sooner or later it happens.
Aussie
Well-known member
All have given great advise please Babytex take it. A personal story.Many years ago when starting my stud and trying to build my numbers I used a popular new bull with a great set of figures. As the first calves hit the ground around the country the calves looked great. Unfortunately as they got older their back leg structure got worse and worse. I was a season later using the bull thought it would not affect me I had selected good structured cows. My calves came looked good the EPDs were fantastic it was the stepping stone my new stud needed. As time when on the hfrs got worse I like you ignored advise. I mated them and calved them. They all in that first season broke down. I shipped all of those hfrs and the calves it was a very costly and hard leason. I wasted a year for the same result. Sell her and put the money towards a good one.
Thanks for the advice, but we do not even know this is what everyone thinks it is. She does not sit anymore than our other show stock and we have a beautiful Heatwave Heifer that was 5th overall heifer at the Wisconsin Beef Expo at just a few months old. This may be because it came from great genetics and a good owner that knows his cattle. Thanks JT Weber!!! But she is not dragging her feet she just seems somewhat swollen in one leg and yes we have talked about feeding her out as a market heifer and dumping her but my dad who has raised livestock for many years thinks I am exagerating the issue and doesn't think her leg is that bad but we will know in the next couple of weeks when the vet does his preg checks if she is bred. If not we will probably think of dumping her but if she is bred and a calf is born alive I am still money ahead as we only paid $900.00 for her and won some money at MN Beef Expo as a prospect and she won at two market shows already. Also we have quite a few acres of land so our feed bill has not been much. Even at commercial prices and a market steer or heifer sold I can make some money. We have a regular buyer who buys all our fair steers and has never had a bad eating steer so if I have a live calf I can still make money at commericial price. Yes I understand all of you talking about the ethical thing to do but maybe I should be talking to the vet about this issue. Maybe this animal does not have what you all are talking about, but again I do really appreciate the comments.
Sounds to me that you already had your mind made up before youasked for advice. So my question to you is why even ask for help if your not gonna listen to what other people have to say. Wake up and smell the coffee you have a heifer that's to straight off her hind wheels and your under the delusion that because the other matings didn't turn out this way it isn't so. Well from what you have described that's exactley what it is.
BABYTEX said:
BT - I assume most people gave their opinion based on your description of the heifers problem. if you don't like what people said perhaps you should have your vet examine her. I have no idea "what everyone is talking about" that she doesn't have, as it is relatively difficult to diagnose a condition based on a description that is (apparently) inaccurate. And perhaps you should also realize that if you are going to raise livestock you will need to make ethical decisions and IMHO ethics should trump economics. crazy you may have summed it up nicely
Okay just a young kid looking for advice!!!! Maybe I should have consulted my father first before posting this as he does not think this animal has what you guys or gals are explaining. Yes, I will have our vet look at this animal when he is out for preg checks in the next week. It's not that I don't trust your judgment and I really do appreciate your posts but I know my father knows cattle. He has been in the dairy and beef cattle business for about 24 years. He is actually the one that told me I should show her as market heifer but unfortunately for our 4-H classes I chose to show her as a breeding heifer and in Minnesota for market animal your paperwork has to be in by Feb 15 or I would have changed her entry. She actually has been doing fairly well when I have shown her as a breeding heifer and has been to a couple bigger shows so maybe this isn't the prob but I will certainly have her checked by our vet who has been in the business for about 30 years.
shorthorngirl2010
Well-known member
For the sake of OTHER POSSIBILITIES-- I'm simply throwing this out there as I have experienced the same thing. I have a show heifer this year who too is slightly swollen in her leg-- HOWEVER-- its NOT because she is straight and she IS SOUND. She is just as active as her contemporaries, if not more. I have noticed it has gotten better since I put her on half feed between big shows (i.e. leaning her up just a bit). One thing that I have also noticed helps, is when you rinse every day, just running cold water on it 10-15 minutes. I notice the little swelling thats there does go down. Hopefully this help-- just throwing out another suggestion for your case. I'm not going to make the judgement and say she is terminal without seeing a picture-- it may very well be something else other than 'clubby syndrome'.
Latest posts
-
-
-
New to showing need help with show stick- Latest: ISquaredCattle
-
-