TH before 1980
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Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR
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Good question!
Also wish do the same question regarding DS and PHA.
Also wish do the same question regarding DS and PHA.
knabe
Well-known member
whiter marked fullblood maines tended to be from england. paramount was an example. i can't imagine they didn't have serious problems with PHA and if it contributed to their demise over there. i've never seen any direct information from there. i've never seen a link with any in england at all.
Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR
Well-known member
Yes Knabe....Uk used massively Maine Anjou breed. And never was found some TH or PHA.....interest conection you did.
Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR
Well-known member
Yes....but today, people mate it and spread the defect on population!
justintime
Well-known member
The TH defect is identical to the defect that was in the Galloway breed back in the 50s and early 60s. The Galloway breed eradicated all lines that carried the defect, and some very good cattle had to be eliminated in order to do this. This was a tough decision but it results in the breed eventually being free of TH.
When Dr Beever was researching TH in the Shorthorn breed, he commented to me that he found it rather unique that the TH defect in Shorthorns was identical to the defect in Galloway. While the mutation could happen in two different breeds,it would be a really rare occurrence for this to happen.
I related a comment I was told by some Irish Shorthorn breeders, when I asked where the Quanes ( Deerpark) had found the sire of Deerpark Improver? They said that after many generations of just using bulls of their own breeding in their herd, the decided to add some outcross breeding, and had purchased a red bull from the local auction market. At this point, Dr Beever interrupted me, and said that " this is finally starting to make some sense" He said he was almost certain that this auction market bull probably went back to some old Galloway breeding in his genetic make-up. This certainly would be the easiest way to have the same genetic defect appear in two breeds. ( it may also answer the question of where all the hair comes from in most TH carrier animals)
When Dr Beever was researching TH in the Shorthorn breed, he commented to me that he found it rather unique that the TH defect in Shorthorns was identical to the defect in Galloway. While the mutation could happen in two different breeds,it would be a really rare occurrence for this to happen.
I related a comment I was told by some Irish Shorthorn breeders, when I asked where the Quanes ( Deerpark) had found the sire of Deerpark Improver? They said that after many generations of just using bulls of their own breeding in their herd, the decided to add some outcross breeding, and had purchased a red bull from the local auction market. At this point, Dr Beever interrupted me, and said that " this is finally starting to make some sense" He said he was almost certain that this auction market bull probably went back to some old Galloway breeding in his genetic make-up. This certainly would be the easiest way to have the same genetic defect appear in two breeds. ( it may also answer the question of where all the hair comes from in most TH carrier animals)
knabe
Well-known member
but galloways have a lot of hair today yet don't they?
OH Breeder
Well-known member
I haven't said a whole lot about the new defect. but here it goes......
2008 I had my first DS calf. It was premature and the vet helped me deliver the calf and it had "funny" legs and the pregnancy seem normal. So the vet and I sent the calf for necropsy to the state of Ohio vet. No infection or viral disease they could not find anything except for the "deformed" feet which were pretty brutal. I sent tissue and blood to a university with pictures of the calf and the pedigrees of both parents. Drew blood on the dam and calf's ear. I notified the Shorthorn Association and the director at the time of the association and i heard NOTHING! ZIP. Not one reply from anyone. I made hamburger out of the female and did not use Proud Jazz after that for anything. few years later I bought a Proud Jazz grandson and I have had four defective calves and two had to be put down because the defect was so severe they could not walk to even nurse for long periods of time. I have eliminated those females and the sire from my herd. The females I had defective calves out of were NOT SHORTHORN they were Maine influenced females. SO I would imagine that many defective calves get thrown in the back lot that live and are never heard from again. If they die they are pitched in a hold and become food for wildlife.
After all this I started to analyze the phenotype of the better steers we would produce from these lines. It is starting to become apparent like with TH that the calves are more compact and muscular in their body type. Most always heavier boned and few have smaller feet if they do not have DS. I have not kept any females for replacement and now their is a "test". i will test the remaining shorthorns we have in our herd and see what we come up with. Never had a TH calf never had a PH calf. Had a TH carrier female that produced a DS calf and a female that was suppose to be PH clean that had a severe affected DS calf. There are club calf lines I would say that have been throwing this "type" of calf that just needs some "extra hoof attention" and no one noticed. I know for fact there is one major club sire that is most likely a carrier of DS. I just wish they would test so people can make informed decisions. Since that doesn't seem to be the case, we are testing our females that have even a slight influence of having a defect so we know the base we are working with and can breed accordingly.
When I had two defective calves last year it wasn't Shorthorn cows. I called a friend and they asked if I knew my females were what they were. I said absolutely. WE had tested for TH and had DNA. So diligently we will move forward and look for the defective cattle and eliminate them from our line. Associations as a whole should be responsive to the members when they provide a calf that does not appear normal and save the data. Not one individual even sent an email confirmation or replied.Here were are 5 years later and its more prevelant than before. Why aren't AI bulls screened and listed in all the semen catalogs for the defect.
You can say its not lethal but I watched a calf struggle for two months to get up and nurse and try to walk to its mother because its feet were so deformed. Anyone who wants a picture send me a personal message and I will send you a picture of the feet which I pictured after we butchered the calf. Freakishly muscled and his rear feet were a mess.
2008 I had my first DS calf. It was premature and the vet helped me deliver the calf and it had "funny" legs and the pregnancy seem normal. So the vet and I sent the calf for necropsy to the state of Ohio vet. No infection or viral disease they could not find anything except for the "deformed" feet which were pretty brutal. I sent tissue and blood to a university with pictures of the calf and the pedigrees of both parents. Drew blood on the dam and calf's ear. I notified the Shorthorn Association and the director at the time of the association and i heard NOTHING! ZIP. Not one reply from anyone. I made hamburger out of the female and did not use Proud Jazz after that for anything. few years later I bought a Proud Jazz grandson and I have had four defective calves and two had to be put down because the defect was so severe they could not walk to even nurse for long periods of time. I have eliminated those females and the sire from my herd. The females I had defective calves out of were NOT SHORTHORN they were Maine influenced females. SO I would imagine that many defective calves get thrown in the back lot that live and are never heard from again. If they die they are pitched in a hold and become food for wildlife.
After all this I started to analyze the phenotype of the better steers we would produce from these lines. It is starting to become apparent like with TH that the calves are more compact and muscular in their body type. Most always heavier boned and few have smaller feet if they do not have DS. I have not kept any females for replacement and now their is a "test". i will test the remaining shorthorns we have in our herd and see what we come up with. Never had a TH calf never had a PH calf. Had a TH carrier female that produced a DS calf and a female that was suppose to be PH clean that had a severe affected DS calf. There are club calf lines I would say that have been throwing this "type" of calf that just needs some "extra hoof attention" and no one noticed. I know for fact there is one major club sire that is most likely a carrier of DS. I just wish they would test so people can make informed decisions. Since that doesn't seem to be the case, we are testing our females that have even a slight influence of having a defect so we know the base we are working with and can breed accordingly.
When I had two defective calves last year it wasn't Shorthorn cows. I called a friend and they asked if I knew my females were what they were. I said absolutely. WE had tested for TH and had DNA. So diligently we will move forward and look for the defective cattle and eliminate them from our line. Associations as a whole should be responsive to the members when they provide a calf that does not appear normal and save the data. Not one individual even sent an email confirmation or replied.Here were are 5 years later and its more prevelant than before. Why aren't AI bulls screened and listed in all the semen catalogs for the defect.
You can say its not lethal but I watched a calf struggle for two months to get up and nurse and try to walk to its mother because its feet were so deformed. Anyone who wants a picture send me a personal message and I will send you a picture of the feet which I pictured after we butchered the calf. Freakishly muscled and his rear feet were a mess.
knabe
Well-known member
the association making personal phone calls to people to be quiet probably didn't help. i actually received a couple of calls and emails due to posts on this websites and phone conversations with people that somehow filtered back, which is ok.
there's another defect out there that is known in the literature they could go after but probably wouldn't make that big of an impact.
it's all a matter of priorities and money.
at some point, people will realize that the number of defects are more numerous than thought and people will get over the paranoia of a "big" name bull or female getting fingered won't be that big of a deal. people will be able to use tests that are cheaper. right now, they are too expensive and they/we need to make it almost an afterthought to have the tests performed. as new defects emerge, if dna is on file, the association can pay for the tests on high use bulls, as at some level, selling high registered offspring puts money in the associations hands. define a cutoff criteria and have sort of a check box section on registration for defects. it appears it's too hard to change the format every time a new defect comes out, but it would be useful if the programmers could make a section more flexible to change.
there's another defect out there that is known in the literature they could go after but probably wouldn't make that big of an impact.
it's all a matter of priorities and money.
at some point, people will realize that the number of defects are more numerous than thought and people will get over the paranoia of a "big" name bull or female getting fingered won't be that big of a deal. people will be able to use tests that are cheaper. right now, they are too expensive and they/we need to make it almost an afterthought to have the tests performed. as new defects emerge, if dna is on file, the association can pay for the tests on high use bulls, as at some level, selling high registered offspring puts money in the associations hands. define a cutoff criteria and have sort of a check box section on registration for defects. it appears it's too hard to change the format every time a new defect comes out, but it would be useful if the programmers could make a section more flexible to change.
knabe
Well-known member
i guess to me the bigger picture issue is
do we have a pre-1980 mentality with respect to defects. ie do they end up in a ditch and no one says anything.
do we have a pre-1980 mentality with respect to defects. ie do they end up in a ditch and no one says anything.
OH Breeder, thanks for your post. Many people are taking DS lightly, since it is considered non-lethal. It is important that breeders test and post the results. Buyers deserve to be informed.
Our farm policy is not to sell any DS carrier bulls. Testing all Shorthorn bulls should be mandatory for DS. Like TH we are testing all bulls for DS, even if their pedigree is free. One of our carriers did not appear to have Improver in the pedigree, until it was traced back several generations.
The combination of PHA with DS is the more serious version of DS, isn't it? You are right that AI people need to publish (or put status on their website) results as soon as possible, so carriers will not be bred to carriers. I have semen from a bull rumored to be DS-C, and would not use him on a cow unless I had her tested DS-F first. Should buyers postpone semen purchases until AI sires have results posted?
Our farm policy is not to sell any DS carrier bulls. Testing all Shorthorn bulls should be mandatory for DS. Like TH we are testing all bulls for DS, even if their pedigree is free. One of our carriers did not appear to have Improver in the pedigree, until it was traced back several generations.
The combination of PHA with DS is the more serious version of DS, isn't it? You are right that AI people need to publish (or put status on their website) results as soon as possible, so carriers will not be bred to carriers. I have semen from a bull rumored to be DS-C, and would not use him on a cow unless I had her tested DS-F first. Should buyers postpone semen purchases until AI sires have results posted?
r.n.reed
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I had 2 bulls that had a different source of TH than improver.One died before I got to use him, the other was more costly 30 plus mature females that luckily had already begun to cull themselves to fertility and do ability.
I dont think there were a whole lot of cases prior to 1980 since there was not much stacking of improver in the pedigrees.At that time AYATOLLAH and his kind were the rage.
One good thing about these defects is that it has given value to the extended pedigree again.
If I was in the market for seedstock I would purchase from someone like Dale and Ohio breeder.Their efforts in identifying and eliminating defects are highly comendable and reflect my values on this subject.
We have had 2 bulls tested for DS so far,Red Commander the full brother to Frontline and another 4508 son that one of our customers had tested,both were DS free.We have also submitted sample on 108,4508 and Frontline for the 50k test that will be tested for DS as well.We also practice inbreeding as well which should bring any problems to the forefront.Frontline is a linebred bull and I have attached pictures of him and 2 of his 6 wk.old calves.The heifer is out of his dam and the bull is out of a 3/4 sister to his dam.
I dont think there were a whole lot of cases prior to 1980 since there was not much stacking of improver in the pedigrees.At that time AYATOLLAH and his kind were the rage.
One good thing about these defects is that it has given value to the extended pedigree again.
If I was in the market for seedstock I would purchase from someone like Dale and Ohio breeder.Their efforts in identifying and eliminating defects are highly comendable and reflect my values on this subject.
We have had 2 bulls tested for DS so far,Red Commander the full brother to Frontline and another 4508 son that one of our customers had tested,both were DS free.We have also submitted sample on 108,4508 and Frontline for the 50k test that will be tested for DS as well.We also practice inbreeding as well which should bring any problems to the forefront.Frontline is a linebred bull and I have attached pictures of him and 2 of his 6 wk.old calves.The heifer is out of his dam and the bull is out of a 3/4 sister to his dam.
Attachments
r.n.reed
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I will get back to you on that.I have to go right now.It is pizza and a movie night with my wife.
Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR
Well-known member
Guys. possibly I'm wrong. OK, if I'm! Will sleep well by the same way.
But for me, a lethal or non lethal defect is almost same!!!
A defect calf will not produce money, so as breeding animal so as commercial one for meat or suckler!!!
The point is this!!!
Keep this positive animals mating and reproducing will spread (if not yet did) so widely the defects, that one day we will not have more normal calfs.....an extreme point, maybe.....but as someone post here before, on 20 years ago we had FEW anormal calves, and now they are borns as worms!
A hornest breeder will cut off the animals - slaughter - and inform the defect animal for rtegister officers and all fellow breeders....
I hope that Shorthorn breed is enough of hipocrisy as well!
But for me, a lethal or non lethal defect is almost same!!!
A defect calf will not produce money, so as breeding animal so as commercial one for meat or suckler!!!
The point is this!!!
Keep this positive animals mating and reproducing will spread (if not yet did) so widely the defects, that one day we will not have more normal calfs.....an extreme point, maybe.....but as someone post here before, on 20 years ago we had FEW anormal calves, and now they are borns as worms!
A hornest breeder will cut off the animals - slaughter - and inform the defect animal for rtegister officers and all fellow breeders....
I hope that Shorthorn breed is enough of hipocrisy as well!
knabe
Well-known member
The test allows one to use the animal and screen offspring.
It will be more common to screen as people get over it.
More defects are on the way.
It will be more common to screen as people get over it.
More defects are on the way.
sue
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My parents generation of friends/breeders have discussed other lines that had similar issues as today's phac and thc issues and yes it would be breeding far before improver.
I dont claim to give advise to anyone's breeding decisions but do intend on testing and posting results at American Shorthorn for all to see. I have clearly stated before that we sent samples a year ago on DS and found results after christmas of 2013. We have cow families that are not JPJ sired but much older generations of improver that are DSC- again we will manage it.
I dont claim to give advise to anyone's breeding decisions but do intend on testing and posting results at American Shorthorn for all to see. I have clearly stated before that we sent samples a year ago on DS and found results after christmas of 2013. We have cow families that are not JPJ sired but much older generations of improver that are DSC- again we will manage it.
sue
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Frostback - not the same breeding as the folks talk about - this bull was imported from Scotland. .. again too old and long before dna, frozen semen etc.
What we need now as a breed to move forward is post or release results with ASA so everyone can make an informed decision in the next mating or breeding decision.
What we need now as a breed to move forward is post or release results with ASA so everyone can make an informed decision in the next mating or breeding decision.
