TH before 1980

[RyanChandler]

Any clean jpj sons been tested?

 

[HAB]

The TH defect is identical to the defect that was in the Galloway breed back in the 50s and early 60s. The Galloway breed eradicated all lines that carried the defect, and some very good cattle had to be eliminated in order to do this. This was a tough decision but it results in the breed eventually being free of TH.

When Dr Beever was researching TH in the Shorthorn breed, he commented to me that he found it rather unique that the TH defect in Shorthorns was identical to the defect in Shorthorns. He said while the same mutation could happen in two different breeds but it would be a really rare occurrence for this to happen.
I related a comment I was told by some Irish Shorthorn breeders, when I asked where the Quanes ( Deerpark) had found the sire of Deerpark Improver? They said that after many generations of just using bulls of their own breeding in their herd, the decided to add some outcross breeding, and had purchased a red bull from the local auction market. At this point, Dr Beever interrupted me, and said that " this is finally starting to make some sense" He said he was almost certain that this auction market bull probably went back to some old Galloway breeding in his genetic make-up. This certainly would be the easiest way to have the same genetic defect appear in two breeds. ( it may also answer the question of where all the hair comes from in most TH carrier animals)

This is a very similar story / history as to what I have been told.  I have raised fullblood Galloways since the early 1980's.  I know of no TH Galloways being born since that time.  The breeders did mid term abortions to identify the carrier bloodlines.  All identified were "supposed" to be slaughtered.  Some "may" have been sold at auction.  We test our bulls, because of the rumored carriers still existing.  With the small gene pool in the Galloway breed, if TH still existed, they would show up.  My opinion.

 

[HAB]

but galloways have a lot of hair today yet don't they?

Knabe- Yes Galloways still carry the same double haircoat they have for centuries.  Galloways tend to be bigger boned also.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

but galloways have a lot of hair today yet don't they?

Knabe- Yes Galloways still carry the same double haircoat they have for centuries.  Galloways tend to be bigger boned also.

I lost something on discussion?!?!?!
Don't understood what link correlation between hair and defect gene?

 

[nativeman]

Wouldn't line breeding catch all these defects,or like it happens some carriers slip through.I guess that's how Deerpark improver bloodline got identified?Would just like to know what carrier bloodlines from long ago other than improver might be in the bottom of somebodys tank to be aware of?

 

[RyanChandler]

Defects have varying levels of expression. Many calves afflicted with DS appear perfectly normal.

 

[OH Breeder]

Defects have varying levels of expression. Many calves afflicted with DS appear perfectly normal.

Being afflicted would mean to me displaying the defect. Some cattle can be DS Carriers but are not visibly affected. DSC can have normal calves. From what I was told then it becomes a similar matrix to TH when mating two DSC and or a PHC to DSC.
I haven't quiet wrapped my head around DSH yet.

 

[r.n.reed]

I thought the improver line was the only line of shorthorns with TH. What were the other ones if you could say.Is that why you don't see much of all the English imports from 30,40,50,60s in breeding lines any more.

I dont remember all the details on the two bulls I had just the fact that they were different than the typical improver TH.I know there was a mutation called Outcast that was out there.
I think you must be referring to the Scottish imports of the 30's 40's and 50's.I don't think it was defects that eliminated these cattle but the fads and fancies of the breeders that made the cattle irrelevant to beef production.The few that survived and are being used  somewhat today still have strong ties to the pre pony craze in their pedigrees.
These are mainly polled cattle that had to keep ties to the old blood to maintain that characteristic.
I spent a lot of time with Clarence Forgey when I was purchasing his Meadowbrook herd and he told me about a foot defect in one of the old polled lines from the early 1900's.Alvin Sanders in his book Red White and Roan espoused the great siring ability of Avondale but concluded with the fact that he sired his fair share of wrecks.It is interesting that his best breeding decendants like Double Dale and Browndale Count were inbred to him and could in part point to the fact that they were not carriers of whatever defect he had thus their heavier use and influence on the breed.
Haphazard linebreeding has brought these defects to light but it takes a very intense well planned program to weed it out.Tests are a lot cheaper and faster.

 

[RyanChandler]

Defects have varying levels of expression. Many calves afflicted with DS appear perfectly normal.

Being afflicted would mean to me displaying the defect. Some cattle can be DS Carriers but are not visibly affected. DSC can have normal calves. From what I was told then it becomes a similar matrix to TH when mating two DSC and or a PHC to DSC.
I haven't quiet wrapped my head around DSH yet.

What if they are homozygous for DS but don't display any physical abnormalities.  Ie very low level of expression?

 

[beebe]

I am putting together a small herd of native cows basicly for the purpose of producing cattle that I will use in my commercial herd and I am using native bulls in my commercial herd now.  Am I safe from defects or do I need to test the natives to make sure there are no defects? 

 

[nativeman]

If the bloodline has nothing registered recently ,than you better test before a ghost that we were told didnt exist pops up with in one breeding before it is linebreed and the teal nasty stuff gets you. Id say 90%,clean,but the other 10% might have to worry about .

 

[knabe]

Am I safe from defects or do I need to test the natives to make sure there are no defects?

all cattle probably have defects.  no one is safe.  no one needs to hyperventilate, bad mouth people about who hid what etc.  technology and communication now makes it easier to identify and breed around them instead of just taking cull price. everyone has probably sold a carrier of something to someone. it's time to move past the past and move on.

 

[OH Breeder]

Am I safe from defects or do I need to test the natives to make sure there are no defects?

all cattle probably have defects.  no one is safe.  no one needs to hyperventilate, bad mouth people about who hid what etc.  technology and communication now makes it easier to identify and breed around them instead of just taking cull price. everyone has probably sold a carrier of something to someone. it's time to move past the past and move on.

That's great motto Knabe move on etc etc etc. Your reply comes off as some what flip. 3 calves in a small herd is a huge loss to us. two of those calves we had to put down. I don't think anyone on the thread has hyperventilated yet or bad mouth a soul.  I think more people need to ask questions and asking a question does not equate to over reaction. If it weren't for looking in the past the defect today would not have been disovered.

I would test to make sure you are free.

 

[knabe]

I would test to make sure you are free.

that's what i am saying. some people were out to destroy people instead of help them along. those relationships are what i am talking about. both sides of the equation were at fault and helped delay getting results out quicker and each side thought the other were evil, and they aren't.  that's the part people need to move on from. at this point, people should know if they ask about defects and they get a vague answer, the alarm bell should go off. there are plenty of people out there like yourself who will correctly inform people of the issue and are to be commended for it. the pool of people out there who understand genetic diversity from a bottlenecked population are few and far between. 


there really is no need for carriers except genetic diversity which we don't know anything about right now. personally, if i had my way, i would use the old bulls carriers or not, get some germ plasm and preserve it.  we think we know what we need to know, but we don't. we still are really in the infancy of genomics. the early attempts at using it were bogus and all that really came out of it were better parenting and finding defects.  we are not even close to understanding what is going on, therefore, the preservation of diversity is important. with angus, it's not a big deal since there are so many, but with most other breeds, diversity is important, even with bulls with problems other than the current crop of genetic defects.

 

[beebe]

The TH defect is identical to the defect that was in the Galloway breed back in the 50s and early 60s. The Galloway breed eradicated all lines that carried the defect, and some very good cattle had to be eliminated in order to do this. This was a tough decision but it results in the breed eventually being free of TH.

When Dr Beever was researching TH in the Shorthorn breed, he commented to me that he found it rather unique that the TH defect in Shorthorns was identical to the defect in Galloway. While the mutation could happen in two different breeds,it would be a really rare occurrence for this to happen.
I related a comment I was told by some Irish Shorthorn breeders, when I asked where the Quanes ( Deerpark) had found the sire of Deerpark Improver? They said that after many generations of just using bulls of their own breeding in their herd, the decided to add some outcross breeding, and had purchased a red bull from the local auction market. At this point, Dr Beever interrupted me, and said that " this is finally starting to make some sense" He said he was almost certain that this auction market bull probably went back to some old Galloway breeding in his genetic make-up. This certainly would be the easiest way to have the same genetic defect appear in two breeds. ( it may also answer the question of where all the hair comes from in most TH carrier animals)

This has been bothering since I read it the first time.  If the Galloway breed got rid of defects why has the Shorthorn breed not done the same?  I would think that it would be a great advantage to be able to say that the breed is clean. 

 

[jaredkcattle]

The TH defect is identical to the defect that was in the Galloway breed back in the 50s and early 60s. The Galloway breed eradicated all lines that carried the defect, and some very good cattle had to be eliminated in order to do this. This was a tough decision but it results in the breed eventually being free of TH.

When Dr Beever was researching TH in the Shorthorn breed, he commented to me that he found it rather unique that the TH defect in Shorthorns was identical to the defect in Galloway. While the mutation could happen in two different breeds,it would be a really rare occurrence for this to happen.
I related a comment I was told by some Irish Shorthorn breeders, when I asked where the Quanes ( Deerpark) had found the sire of Deerpark Improver? They said that after many generations of just using bulls of their own breeding in their herd, the decided to add some outcross breeding, and had purchased a red bull from the local auction market. At this point, Dr Beever interrupted me, and said that " this is finally starting to make some sense" He said he was almost certain that this auction market bull probably went back to some old Galloway breeding in his genetic make-up. This certainly would be the easiest way to have the same genetic defect appear in two breeds. ( it may also answer the question of where all the hair comes from in most TH carrier animals)

Nice post, had no idea that it could possibly be traced back to Galloway.

Problem today is there is too much $$$ involved in high end part of the club calf business for people to stop using th carriers.

 

[RyanChandler]

But what about the invisible hand?  (lol)

 

[oakview]

I have personally not had a DS calf born at my farm.  A friend had 2 sired by my bull out of cows he brought here to breed.  Perhaps some of you consider it a knee jerk reaction on my part, but the bull was shipped 2 days after I heard about the calves. I documented my experience feeding out the calves earlier.

Here's a problem for all of you to solve.  I have an absolutely outstanding son of the bull mentioned above.  I sent in the hair sample and finally received the results today.  I knew he would be THF and PHAF, I didn't know about DS.  The report I received just hours ago shows he is DSC.  I pulled up his pedigree on the ASA website and it shows his TH, PHA, and DS status already today, as I believe it should.  However, the pedigree on the extremely popular grandsire of my bull, widely known to spread the defective gene, does not have the DS status shown on his pedigree.  I know many, many people who have used this bull that have had either DS afflicted calves or a lot that have tested DSC.  Why is my bull's status public knowledge, but not the source?  I do not want the DS status of my bull kept secret, but why is it a secret about the origin?  Let's call a spade a spade.

Here's another one for you.  I have 2 people that have expressed interest in buying this bull.  They were informed that he could be a DS carrier.  Now that he has tested positive, I will tell them about it.  They have said and will say they don't care.  Should I sell them the bull?  Should I lower the price since he is DSC?  Maybe I should raise the price?

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Good point Oakview.

Maybe old bulls/cows or the source as you describe where not tested due missing material. But I think that is very important test all material availabe to ne well clear what are the carriers....with this info, the breeders can get yours personnal decisions.

ASA make a DS list online? Or we need to check animal by animal on search option? A full list could economize lots of time.

Overseas can send material for analyse? I have interest to check my herd.

Oakview...regarding price for your bull....ask a high price, clubbies love carriers and have lots of money as well. Make a limonade with your lemmons!

 

[RyanChandler]

You shouldn't sell them the bull- you should sell me the bull- and at a discount!