TH Proliferation

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garybob

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Feb 4, 2007
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knabe said:
Fiscal cliff?

Lautner is obviously looking for a non thc bull.

You can bet he will be loud and proud when he finds a replacement.

Hopefully it won't be one with another defect.
Until then, he don't give a 'durn' how many broken-hearted kids and angry parents find a dead, defective calf and/or injured cow/heifer in the corrall.

You're right, though...He'll jump high & fart loud when he does discover the "Holy Grail".
GB
 

leanbeef

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There seems to be a lot of animosity and blame toward one guy here for providing a product that a lot of people want. Maybe these guys are pretty good at marketing their product, and maybe they're better at it than anybody else... Is anybody being brain washed here? It's not my intention to stick up for Lautner's program, and I doubt those guys need me to do that for them, but it seems absurd to me that people buy what Lautner sells and then complain about it being sold. And I understand it isn't necessarily the same people who are buying it and who are complaining about it...

This is a simple case of supply and demand...if people stopped buying semen on THC bulls, the guys who make a living off of that would find something else to be their "bread and butter" and then they'd do a good job marketing THAT. You can't force people to buy something they don't want...that's not how this works.

As mostly just an observer of the club calf thing, it's a somewhat interesting topic to me. And it's probably more interesting to me because I happen to have one cow that's different from my entire breeding program, and she happens to be both THC and PHAC. If she wasn't one of my favorite cows, I wouldn't have considered keeping her as long as I have, or considered flushing her just to try and get a clean heifer out of her to continue the cow family after she's gone. I haven't flushed her yet...she continues to have her one steer calf each year, and I just keep thinking, "I sure wish I had a clean heifer out of that cow!"

I'm a Simmental and SimAngus breeder, and since the ASA has always had an open herd book, our breed is forced to deal with every genetic defect known, regardless of what breed it's been traced to. And I'll tell you, nobody sat back and said, "Let's keep making these because they're just better than the others." On the other hand, nobody has said, "These cattle are banned from ever reproducing another calf!" The association has taken measures to identify cattle that are carriers or potentially carriers, and I think they have tried hard to make sure the breeders accepted the responsibility of deciding what to do with that information. I for one appreciate the steps our association has taken to identify those cattle and to inform us as breeders, and I appreciate the fact that we have an opportunity to know more about this generation or the next and to educate ourselves and our customers. I feel a responsibility to my program, to the beef industry, and to my customers to be informed and to share that information with other breeders. Does my program have a major affect on the entire population of the American cow herd?...No...but does that abstain me from a responsibility as a seed stock producer to produce clean cattle and to help educate other breeders who may not understand a few things I've learned along the way?...No...I don't think it does. The cool thing about living in America is we all get to decide for ourselves, so I don't feel the need to dictate to any other breeder what he should or should not be breeding to. If people are willing to pay for a product, then somebody is going to provide that product. If nobody is willing to pay for it, chances are, those guys are going to look for another way to make a living.

I'm not trying to get on a soap box here, and I'm not "looking down my nose" at anybody who wants to use THC bulls in his breeding program. But let's all take responsibility for our own decisions and accept our own consequences without blaming somebody else for forcing us to "drink the Cool-Aid." We all share our own burden for educating ourselves on these matters and for making our own decisions about how we'll use or not use that information in our own breeding program. I don't know of many guys who are trying to sell semen on THC bulls to some unsuspecting cow owner who has never heard of a genetic defect existing in the club calf industry.
 

Lucky_P

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Jan 27, 2012
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Twisted,
Strictly commercial herd here; haven't had a registered cow in over 20 years, never showed one.  But...I've gotten some good info from participants here - granted, I have no inclination to even look at over 90% of the stuff on this forum, and have no need for 'hair, bone or freaky neck extension' in my breeding program - but for Shorthorn info/experience/opinion, I'm not aware of another place I could go and access a braintrust, with or without the show/clubby influence, that's available here.

TH/PHA are avoided in my selection process, as are AM, NH, and CA when I'm breeding to Angus sires.  Double-muscling?  I'm still mulling that one over, as DM-carrier steers might have a place here...
 

kidsandkows

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Dec 30, 2010
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Leanbeef you make some very good points...I totally agree! One thing that you mentioned I have been thinking about for a while. I wish that when they market a lot of these animals in sales that they would test them and have those results for people. I wasnt as educated on all of this stuff when I was buying my last bull  a few years ago and I ended up buying a good bull and then I had to test him and sure enough he was a PHA carrier and now I have a few of his carrier daughters in my herd. It is definately a little more work management wise to be sure we dont have any carrier x carrier breeding. But lately I have been looking at bulls and a lot of people dont test. I have to be sure to get a clean bull so I end up not bidding on anything I dont know for sure about. So when I sell heifers etc in the future I am going to be sure to test and share that with the buyers of the animal, because I know how helpful it is to me. I applaud everyone that does test and share the results with buyers and encourage anyone who doesnt to consider testing. I think it might get you more bidders/buyers in the long run.
 

ZNT

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Rhome, TX
kidsandkows said:
Leanbeef you make some very good points...I totally agree! One thing that you mentioned I have been thinking about for a while. I wish that when they market a lot of these animals in sales that they would test them and have those results for people. I wasnt as educated on all of this stuff when I was buying my last bull  a few years ago and I ended up buying a good bull and then I had to test him and sure enough he was a PHA carrier and now I have a few of his carrier daughters in my herd. It is definately a little more work management wise to be sure we dont have any carrier x carrier breeding. But lately I have been looking at bulls and a lot of people dont test. I have to be sure to get a clean bull so I end up not bidding on anything I dont know for sure about. So when I sell heifers etc in the future I am going to be sure to test and share that with the buyers of the animal, because I know how helpful it is to me. I applaud everyone that does test and share the results with buyers and encourage anyone who doesnt to consider testing. I think it might get you more bidders/buyers in the long run.

I am amazed how so many of these sales by influential breeders in the industry omit any TH and PHA information on their cattle.  One sale that stick out to me because I got the catalog in the mail was the recent First Class sale.  They had a catalog full of potential TH and PHA carriers, yet I do not remember any genetic testing results published.  And it wasn't just a lack of time issue because they were young heifers, these were coming 2 year old bred heifers.  But again, the sale was a HUGE success, so apparently the market does not care if they are carriers or not.  As you said kidsandkow, you no longer look at bulls where this information is not provided.  It has been 2 years since we have sold a carrier bull, and this was one raised by an associate of our, not from our program, but the genetic status was disclosed on the front-end of the sale. 

I will comment one thing for Lautner's, and that is the fact that they are disclosing the genetic status of their bull much better than they did 5 years ago.  I think that once they learned their clients were want carrier bulls, they realized that this was not something they needed to hide, but rather promote.
 

garybob

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GONEWEST said:
Can anyone tell me why this is still a topic? Why does it matter if show cattle have TH, PHA, XYZ, Phd? WHY? Who cares and why? Its like whining that apples are red and they would be better if like oranges, they were orange. If they didn't have a smooth peel. They ought to have a rough peel like an orange. And they gotta suck since they aren't grown in the same environment as an orange. (For all my Tennessee friends just remember that no fruit sucks like a Big Orange!) Why can't apples be oranges? I hate apples because they aren't oranges. These people that have apple orchards are idiots and out to dupe the world because, why, they grow apples! I have an orange orchard and those oranges grow all on their own. If a freeze comes at the wrong time, well too bad for the orange. We are developing freeze resistant oranges. Probably won't happen in my lifetime, probably won't happen in my kids lifetime, probably won't happen in their grand kids lifetime, but by golly we're working on it through environmental pressure. That apple orchard guy sprays his trees with water to protect them from freezing, what an idiot! No environmental pressure applied to his orchard, no siree bob! Nothing real world about apples.
What's that? The apple orchard guy made 759 times the amount of money I did this year with my environmentally pressurized oranges? BLASPHEMY!!!! Off with his head! He's out to rule the world with his Red Delicious and Granny Smiths. Moron doesn't know a thing about oranges. Next thing you know apples will be everywhere, taking over the citrus industry, you know. Do tangerines allow apples to be registered in their herd book?  ::)
?????????????? ??? ??? ???GB ;)
 

garybob

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Y'all still ain't answered my question. Why, at purebered Livestock events, do Y'uns roll your eyes and put-down Shorthorns for TH, then turn right around and use a "Correctly Pigmented" Black or Smoke bull that is a TH carrier?????? Y'uns make smartass remarks about color, then use Walks Alone.

Patiently awaiting an informed, tactful response.
GB
 

vc

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My guess GB is that Walks Alone was used in hopes to get a Quality terminal animal, purebred animals are purchased for breeding, in most cases the heifer is a byproduct, I would guess if they sold sexed semen to produce bull calves, it would sale like hotcakes for Heatwave, Walks Alone and most of the others bulls of that type. I do not care if a Terminal steer has TH or not, you do not have to worry about what to breed your steer to.
I for one do not go rolling my eyes at any breed of cattle, and feel it is up to the individual who own the animal to breed their animal the way they wish, Free or Dirty, black or Colored, your animals, breed them your way, If I do not like your program I do not have to buy from you.
 
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