THE FAIRNESS POLICE

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GONEWEST

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GEORGIA
Not to brag,  ;D,  but I had a calf we sold via Steer Planet do really well at a fairly large show in AR this week.  In talking to the family that bought the calf, I learned some things I found to be very strange to me concerning rules and regulations set up by those in charge of the show, I assume extension.

Now I realize Texas slick shears steers and I have never hidden the fact that makes absolutely zero sense to me. Why? One because the reasoning behind that is to keep the fitting out of the decision making in the ring. To make it "fair" for everyone, an even playing field if you will. That all sounds well and good, but what has happened is the same people win that would win if they had hair. It has allowed few, if any, different people to excel. So for me, the main reason this doesn't make sense is because the reasoning for doing it this way hasn't panned out. But the second reason I think it makes no sense is because with no hair to care for, no animal to groom, the project consists of not much more than throwing some feed in a trough and making sure he has water. In my opinion, the hair work is what makes the project a good one, what teaches responsibility, sticktoitiveness, work ethic. Without it, the amount of effort required  is far less.

But today I find out in AR, that before the steers go into the ring, they are wet down with a hose and shown soaking wet. First time I have ever heard of that one. This rule was put in place because there are people who have coolers and those in charge didn't feel it fair they have some advantage over another. They couldn't slick shear them because the state fair is next month with no such rule so they just soaked 'em down. I also learned that no one could fit the cattle at the show besides the child or his or her parents. Again, obviously this is put in place to keep someone from being able to hire a professional and have some advantage over someone who CHOSE not to do the same. Again more "do gooders" trying to make everything fair for all. When what actually happens is those kids who have parents who's business is show cattle, who are in fact professional fitters, have an insurmountable advantage of those kids who are 10 years old and have a parent who is a nurse or works down at the car plant. Its not even fair to have a 10 year old fit against an 18 year old.  For instance, one family from AR had the champion Hereford, Maintainer, and Chi a this summers junior nationals. Do you think they had an advantage over someone who's parents weren't professional cattle people? The best way to make this fair for everyone would have been to allow the families to hire anyone they wanted to fit.

Don't give me this stuff about how my kid fits his own and I wouldn't have it any other way and how he does as well as anyone. When you have a national champion that  a 12 year old fitted by himself then you can tell me HE does as well as anyone. Until then, a child is no match for a professional. When your child does all he or she can do to the best of their ability and experience, yet doesn't have the same opportunity to have the same reward as those who have a professional as a parent, someones reasoning is off. If you CHOOSE to do it that way, good for you. But there shouldn't be any "Do gooder" keeping someone else from doing it their way. And you shouldn't whine because someone else decided to do it different than you CHOSE to.

If you tell me that everyone can't afford fitters and coolers, etc. and that's why no one should get an advantage from them I would tell you that in all of life there will be people who are far wealthier than you. And that you compete with them every day. You can figure out how to do it early or you can waste half of your life saying "It's not fair that he has more resources than I do." If that is how you feel you could always move to FL and compete in the state steer show there. All the steers from in the state steer show come from one ranch. They are long eared, tiger striped, rodeo stock direct from the swamp. You draw for a number and then pick your calf when it's your turn. All steers cost the same. Everyone is on even ground. Doesn't that sound like a blast? All you have to do is have some tall pens and make sure your health insurance is paid up and you are ready to go. Everyone has the same chance. I don't think they allow you to hire a rodeo clown while you are trying to break them, however, but I am not sure on that.

Here in our state we show commercial heifers by weight and not by birth date. The reasoning is that since they aren't registered why someone could actually cheat and say that they were born whenever. And we all know that those with registration papers were born on the EXACT date that paper says  ::). So what is the result of this type of reasoning? Last state fair Judge Jimmy Williams, V-8 Ranch, chose a 14 month old 700 pound calf as the reserve champion. WHY? Because he has no way to know the calf is 14 months old and a midget. More do gooders in action.

These people are like the government. They know how to make your life better and don't think that you do. So they do it for you. I guess extension is the government.

What are the rules you encounter that are supposed to make things fair for all that end up doing the exact opposite of what they have intended?
 

knabe

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Feb 7, 2007
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Hollister, CA
GONEWEST said:
What are the rules you encounter that are supposed to make things fair for all that end up doing the exact opposite of what they have intended?

subsidies, tax breaks, tax rates, regulations written by large corporations, zoning, toll booths, property tax, child credit tax, earned income tax, welfare, social security, managed economy, the fed, inheritance tax, rules that government is allowed to break for the public good, but the public is not, eminent domain, obama care, banning plastic bags, political correctness, blasphemy laws, hypocrisy, victimhood.  pretty much an infinite list.
 

GoWyo

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Nov 29, 2008
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Wyoming
Is showing cattle (and I mean at the county fair level) for the kids or is it for all of the parents living their lives vicariously through their kids?  At county fair the kids should fit their own stuff - not the parents.  Why have a project at all if the kid just gets to watch the professional pit crew (which may well be mom and dad) do all the work?  Younger kids should get help from the older ones, but the whole thing should be for the kids, not the show cattle support industry.  Should there be rules about this with enforcement?  We do at our county fair, but it isn't strictly enforced.  Most folks will back up and let the kid do the work once the rule is mentioned to them.
 

Ms Ray

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Jan 21, 2009
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235
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california
I'm in CA, and we have a hands off rule at fair also, the kids help each other and you can tell them what they need to
 

knighthawk

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Dec 13, 2011
Messages
31
I'm a firm believer in the idea that the only way to make the show "fair" is to remove all rules. That way nobody is cheating and everyone has equal opportunity to do whatever they feel is necessary.
 

DLD

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Apr 15, 2007
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sw Oklahoma
As GONEWEST says, nothing's ever going to make it even.  If you limit it to the kids, there'll still be some kids that are way better at it than others (not to mention all of the clipping and other work that happens before you get to the show).  

I will say this for sure - I wouldn't like showing cattle wet at all (it took me awhile to come up with something that nice to say about it).  County shows need to have the same rules regarding hair as their state shows.  If they want to make it blow and show and not allow adhesives, that's fine.

 

woltemathangus

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Feb 1, 2011
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241
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Nebraska
So your saying that a kid that works his tail end off all summer on 6 head of his or hers  best calves and has them all haired up, has to fit everyone of them by him or herself even is the classes are back to back. Or he or she should be disqualified for having his or hers parents or other people ("professionals" as you call them) help fit them. Or maybe make it a slick show or wet them down and make sure he is not somehow cheating. I love how freddy 4hers and there parents love to jump to conclusions that a kid has done absolutely no work with a calf because his calves are being fit by somebody else.
It's a never ending argument.
The freddys hate getting beat....
 

GoWyo

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Wyoming
Some kids are way better at it than others because they go to jackpots and fit their own stuff and they do their work at home.  They also might pay for a professional clip job a few days before the show.  The idea isn't to make it even.  The idea is to provide the incentive for the kid to learn the skills to care for and present their animal and to have hard work pay off.  At a terminal show like our county fair, the people in the community want to see the kids' projects, not parents and professional fitters trying to see who can outdo the other.  Those same people in the community are a large portion of the buyers at the sale.  Allowing a free for all is a good way to lose support for the fair and for the sale.
 

GoWyo

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Wyoming
WAR said:
So your saying that a kid that works his tail end off all summer on 6 head of his or hers  best calves and has them all haired up, has to fit everyone of them by him or herself even is the classes are back to back. Or he or she should be disqualified for having his or hers parents or other people ("professionals" as you call them) help fit them. Or maybe make it a slick show or wet them down and make sure he is not somehow cheating. I love how freddy 4hers and there parents love to jump to conclusions that a kid has done absolutely no work with a calf because his calves are being fit by somebody else.
It's a never ending argument.
The freddys hate getting beat....

Does this happen at the county fair level?  I am not talking about jackpot shows.  My kid had to get 4 head ready at his county fair and he figured out a way to do it with help from one other kid.  He had to use some time management, networking, and logistics to make it work.  Maybe don't take more than you can handle to the show.  Time and resource management plays a part of it too and is part of the learning aspect of the project.
 

Gators Rule

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Feb 28, 2011
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100
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Florida
Gonewest, everyone has an opinion, and I respect yours. 

I don't for one second believe life is "fair"...but I do believe anyone who thinks it's ok to bring Pros into a youth show is sadly missing a chance to give a kid some life lessons that he or she can use when they're 30 or 40 years old.    Winning is great, but winning at all costs is sad.  Lastly, I think 12 year olds should compete against the 18 year olds.  That 12 year old will be 18 one day, and will get the chance to put to use their 6 years of hard earned experience, just like in the "real world".. 

I could be wrong, and that is okay, but that is my opinion.
 

Doc

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Apr 13, 2007
Messages
3,636
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Cottontown, Tennessee
Yea, I understand what you are saying about the same kids winning. If they have the money to buy the good ones with the hair, then they have the money to buy the good ones to slick shear. As far as the kids doing all the fitting , I don't have a problem with that. It's like someone else said you will enventually be 18 or 21 yourself(whatever the cut off is). The big thing is I've seen 12 year olds run circles around some 18 year olds or even some adults. So age alone really isn't a determining factor.
Once again it's like they are playing t-ball where they don't keep score , so everyone is a winner. One year at our state 4-H expo, they had 4 kids that their steer didn't make the minimum weight so they made a class for them so they wouldn't be left out.
By the way congrats on the steer you sold.
 

knabe

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Feb 7, 2007
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Hollister, CA
This thread reminds me of the show about the 4 year old girl pageant shows.

Is there this much controversy in the quilt, or preserves show?

I hear kids don't do their own quilts and take classes and show the quilt they made in class and everyone else complains. Some of the kids have better grandmas and throw their own under the bus. It's a mess. Why do cattle get all the drama. What a joke.

 

KSanburg

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May 5, 2010
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695
Location
Western Colorado
The thing about all of these rules that I find ironic is that most of the time the folks that complain or make up these stupid rules are the ones that there kids get the least support and work the least on their cattle. There is one family in our county that complains every year about something rather it is fitting or even to the point that one time the dad told me that we should have a rule for "Club Calves" shouldn't be allowed. Which I find very funny because while in most everyone’s mind the clubby bred cattle that we recognize as such are usually a Heinz 57 or have multiple breeds of cattle in their genetic makeup. But there are also f1 cattle that we consider clubby/showy, and some good ones at that.

This family has the hardest time feeding cattle while their steers are generally from their own herd and are just average feedlot cattle they do not get the groceries that they need to even start to be competitive. Consequently they find the end of the class every year and the dad actually thinks that by not allowing "club calves" will change this in some way. They don't except help or suggestions from anyone, not even successful registered cattle operations. So while in this situation all the rules in the world will not help and the kids are learning nothing because dad and mom will not seek out the help that is readily available or are just too stubborn to take it when it is offered.

You can’t fix stupid! 
 

vc

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Jul 24, 2007
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So-Cal
When ever I help a kid out I ask them do you want to compete or just raise a steer project and make money, depending on what they want to do, determines how they have to approach their project from the beginning.
If they want a steer project and make money we look at the commercial calves, pay market price and feed them commercial feed, as far as a competitive project, well you all know what that takes.
 

rf21970

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Mar 10, 2010
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Middle TN
The wide range of viewpoints on this subject never ceases to amaze me. I'm pretty much with Gonewest on this. There are rules in all we take part in and they are the vital component of a civil society. However, whether it be steer shows or homecoming float building, the measures some organizations go to in the name of "fairness" is down right silly. The idea that just because a parent, older sibling or Kirk Stierwalt (sp?) fits a calf some how takes away from the learning experience of the project is very foreign to me. Unless you want to be a barber or a hair dresser, I think this is the least "real world" of the whole process. I know its all about hard work. Totin rocks and cuttin wood is hard work also and have their lessons they instill in kids. I don't let 10 YO kids cut my hair nor do I expect them to be able clip and fit 1200# steer solo. Sure there are exceptions. There are kids that pretty much do it all because they really love it and their parents don't have the expertise and wouldn't be much help. If you wanna sit in a lawn chair at the fair while your child is hustling around trying to fit his project just so you can say that he did it all by himself...more power to you. But don't force that ideology on us all.
 

woltemathangus

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Nebraska
The people that complain from the bottom of the class, don't understand at all that you cannot make a red ribbon steer into a purple or blue with a nice fit job. It doesn't happen!
The same people wanted to have a county bred and fed show. It just so happens that champion and reserve were born, raised and fed in the county. I honestly wouldn't care if they made it a blow and go show. But are they gonna make it so parents and professionals can't blow them out. (lol)
 

sackshowcattle

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May 17, 2011
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colorado
Its sad the way that some fairs try to even the playing field and all they are doing is making numbers go even lower. I went to  county 2 years ago to watch a friends daughter show. My friend is all about the kids and will help anyone who asks and is probably one of the better fitters out there. At the show he had probably ten different kids and parents come up and ask him to help them.  He said with the rule change that year his daughters calves and their calves would be disqualified if he helped. The county was mad that the calves he helped with were placing well. The year before a girl he helped it was her second year and he helped her win showmanship and be a contender in the champion drive. Between him and his daughter helping her with being on the lead and helping fit the calf.  How are kids going to learn and be excited about showing if no one can help them and teach them what they need to do. How discouraging is it for kids if rules are put in place that keep the new people at the bottom of the pack. This fair went so far that its dangerous now. A calf going to the ring stepped on his blower hose and blew it apart it started swinging and spooked the calf as soon as the calf started to act up he told me to back up and not touch the calf. If I layed a hand on it even if it was just to calm it down not helping fit in any way he was disqualified. This year almost half the calves went to other counties.  Another county does a three strike rule. If someone helps the kid each time its a strike 3 your out. If a parent waters the calf once thats a strike. If the parent leads the calf thats a strike. How do these counties expect an 8 year old to handle a calf that gets spooked or suffer if someone steps in to help. My friends county even the club leader couldn't touch other calves then their kids. So how are new members going to learn if even their club leader can't touch the calf. I really think this state is trying to get rid of beef projects with all the new rules they are coming out with to make it impossable to learn and level the playing field.
 

GONEWEST

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GEORGIA
GoWyo said:
Is showing cattle (and I mean at the county fair level) for the kids or is it for all of the parents living their lives vicariously through their kids?  At county fair the kids should fit their own stuff - not the parents.  Why have a project at all if the kid just gets to watch the professional pit crew (which may well be mom and dad) do all the work?  Younger kids should get help from the older ones, but the whole thing should be for the kids, not the show cattle support industry.  Should there be rules about this with enforcement?  We do at our county fair, but it isn't strictly enforced.  Most folks will back up and let the kid do the work once the rule is mentioned to them.

I think that no matter what you do, baseball, cattle, motocross, piano, beauty pageants, you will always have a few parents that live vicariously through their children. I think in this debate it's totally a non issue. What the debate was about is what is fair to the child. The reason you have the project, to me, is the work done at home, not the work for an hour or two at the fair, but the day in and day out work. IMO it is NOT fair to have a child who is 10 or 12 and has parents who are not professional cattle people compete against an 18 year old with parents who ARE professionals. If EVERYONE had access to the opportunity to present their animal the best it could be presented, THAT would be fair.  I think it's awesome what your child accomplished that you mentioned. If that is what you deem important, that is your prerogative and I fully support your right to it. The fair is the least important part of the project as far as I am concerned. It's the reward for the work and to me every child should have his work rewarded by the opportunity to have his animal presented in a way that reflects the work he has done at home.
 

GONEWEST

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Gators Rule said:
Gonewest, everyone has an opinion, and I respect yours.  

I don't for one second believe life is "fair"...but I do believe anyone who thinks it's ok to bring Pros into a youth show is sadly missing a chance to give a kid some life lessons that he or she can use when they're 30 or 40 years old.    Winning is great, but winning at all costs is sad.   Lastly, I think 12 year olds should compete against the 18 year olds.   That 12 year old will be 18 one day, and will get the chance to put to use their 6 years of hard earned experience, just like in the "real world"..  

I could be wrong, and that is okay, but that is my opinion.

Gators rule, you're right, you could be wrong. But look at your screen name and your avatar. What else would you expect?  ;) (lol)

Seriously, Would you also believe that 12 year olds competed in baseball with 18 year olds? What do you think a 12 year old would do with a 6'6" 245 lb 18 year old throwing a baseball 90 miles an hour? would you tell him, "Hey, you'
ll be 18 one day and you'll have your chance to put that hard earned experience to work." Doubtful. It's also doubtful that 12 year old will be playing baseball at 18 because after a couple years of absolute failure and embarrassment at the hands of 18 year olds, he won't play baseball any more. Why would a kid showing cattle be any different?

What is the life lesson that you learn by not bringing in professionals to a youth show? You take pride in what you did, win or lose?

I'll give you a life lesson. I tired to get into vet school twice. I had the grades. At that time there were 2 vet schools in the whole southeast. They admitted 50 per year. 10 had to be women and minorities and 10 had to be from out of state in order for the school to receive federal money. 10 or 11 had 4.0's and not enough sense to get in out of the rain. So actually you were competing for 20 spots or less. I had everything to get in EXCEPT I didn't have letters of recommendation from the right people, my dad didn't give lots of money to the vet school, there were no strings to be pulled, no advantage to be taken. But I did it by myself, by golly! And I get frustrated after I learned how the system worked and never tried again. So when you go to get a good job, when you try to get into the school you want to go to or you try to get that scholarship you need, do you think that it's "just sad to win at all costs?" Would you rather say, "well, I didn't get hired, but by golly I did it on my own. Just like I used to fit my cattle at the fair by myself. Never won there either."

That's the life lesson I see being taught by not giving your kid the best opportunity possible to succeed and be rewarded for the work he did at home.

And I forgot to ask, at the state steer show there do they have a clown in the middle of the ring in a barrel?  (lol)
 

twistedhshowstock

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May 2, 2011
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758
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Nacogdoches, TX
Here is my 2 cents on why no rules out there are about what happens  at the show is gonna amount to a hill of beans over which steer, heifer, goat, pig, or whatever other animal wins the show.  It is because YOU CANT WIN A SHOW AT THE SHOW.  Thats right, you win the show during the months leading up to a show at home.  Thats why making them slick didnt change who was winning, because regardless of who wins haired or slick, the work has to be put in at home and those families or their employees were getting the work done months before the show.  I am going to tell you this, a professional fit job has never made the difference in any animal winning or losing the show.  If it did then the judge wasnt worth the space he was taking up because he wasnt evaluating cattle, he was playing politics of some sort and it didnt matter how good the calf under the hair was anyway.  People cheat at everything, rules and laws never stopped them, so you cant make rules to make things fair, its sad but true. 
Now on that note you all know that I am a staunch supporter that at any show where a kid has to be a 4-H or FFA member then that animal was supposed to be a project and as it is a project then that child should be expected to learn something.  I used to be a fan of those shows requiring kids to turn in a project book at the show, but that was years ago when I was young and naive before I was old enough to realize that all the other kids' moms were doing their record books for them.  I was at a show one time that I believe it was the 4-H show, before the kids were elligible for premiums or to make sale they had to go through an interview that asked questions about their project.  I liked that idea, but then I realised that at bigger shows it would be a logistical nightmare to interview all those kids. So there really is no perfect plan, but everyone is going to complain until their version of perfect exists. 

Now just a few sidenotes, hiring a fitter  isnt always a choice a family can make.  Some families want their kids to have the experience but just cant afford the fitters, etc.  Funny thing is those people ussually have everything going against them yet they work their tails off to be in the lower end of the class, and they are just happy to be there.  As far as kids fitting their own, yes its possible, I grew up with a single mother on a teachers salary who never received child support and lost everything in the divorce.  I was one of those kids just happy to be there, I never had a pro fitter, I was lucky enough to have some people close to me that were fairly good with what they did.  They helped me the first couple years to get my calves clipped a few days before I left for a show, but after that I was own my own.  I was lucky enough to have a few small time breeders that had fairly decent cattle that started either selling to me cheap or just letting me take calves to show.  I never once had any outside help at a show except for maybe Louivilles a few times when I went with a group and we helped each other, but even at  our state shows, I did it all myself.  My mom filing feed pans or water buckets or holding stuff for me was about the extent of the help that I had.  Now the most I ever had at a show was 2 or 3, mainly because I couldnt afford any more, but also because I knew I couldnt handle anymore by myself.  And you know what I got it all done, my cattle were always ready by the time they needed to be in the ring, it was never what many of you would consider a "pro"job, but they looked good and I never once got beat because the fit job wasnt good enough.  Now I never won any major shows, but I did move to the top of some classes at some good sized shows, won some classes at our state shows, middle of classes at Louisville.  But that was honestly the most I could of ever hoped for from those calves.  So it is doable, and not hiring a pro is not always choice, sometimes it isnt an option.  And you know what looking back I am glad it wasnt an option for me, because I learned SO much having to do it myself.  That is my reward, because I can look at most of the folks my age that I showed against that got the banner/buckle type rewards and know that they didnt walk away with half the knowledge or abilility that I did.

And a final thought in this long diatribe. LOL.  I agree that making the shows slick here in Texas  slick or blow and go didnt accomplish the intentions of evening the playing field, but for other reasons  I think its the best decision some shows ever made.  Have you ever been in the barns at Houston during the steer and heifer shows? Ever noticed how they are piled on top of each other like sardines? Now imagine what it would be like if we had to get chutes in there, or even have enough space to move around one and fit without a chute.  Not to mention the divas  who always think they are more important and should be entitled to twice as much space  as everyone else.  Like I said slick or full fit dont really matter to me, I do like workiing hair on one.  But shows like Houston would be a train wreck if you opened it up and let people start trying to fit in there.
 
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