THE FAIRNESS POLICE

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DLD

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twistedhshowstock said:
I am going to tell you this, a professional fit job has never made the difference in any animal winning or losing the show.

Twisted, I agree with much of what you've had to say here,  but this statement just doesn't hold water.  If it doesn't matter, then why do we fit them at all?  There's a reason that the better cattle usually have the better fit jobs - because the owners of those cattle know what they're doing.  They knew what they were doing when they selected them, when they fed them, when they worked hair, and when they show them.  They know if they have the ability to clip and fit them to their full potential, or if they need help.  Now I'm not saying the best fitter in the world can make a poor quality animal win a tough show, but a good fit job versus a not so good one one can sure move the same animal up in many cases - whether that's from 15th to 13th or from third to first depends on the animal and the competition. 

We clip and fit to get the full potential out of a calf.  We try to optimize their good parts and minimize their bad ones.  I'm not saying you should pay someone to do it every time.  We (exhibitors, family, club leaders, etc...) need to learn to do it, do it as often as we can, and strive to do it to the best of our abilities.  Anyone that really wants to learn to do it can - watch the ones that are good at it, ask questions, and practice, practice, practice.  If the only time you pick up a set of clippers is once a year at your county fair, that's nobody's fault but your own.  I'm no slouch at getting one ready, and my kids are getting there.  I'd never be afraid to show anywhere, whatever the rules about who can fit - we'll hold our own.  But on the other hand, if we have one that can compete at the top end of a major, I'm gonna have the best set of fitters on 'em that I can, because I know the competition will be doing the same.

Knabe, I like this.  A lot.
knabe said:
nervousness means you care.  reducing it is reducing caring. 

if one learned all there was the first time out, there would be no excellence. 

no one deserves to win, but they deserve to keep improving.

Our state shows (and some counties) have fitting contests.  If you want to get your kids interested and involved in the fitting process, do this.  They get lots of great prizes donated (clippers and lots of other show equipment and supplies),  and the kids that do it love it. 

 

DLD

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sw Oklahoma
GoWyo said:
The county fair level though, is a different deal.  We have separate FFA and 4-H shows.  The FFA show takes only the top 10 animals for the sale and the 4-H show lets everyone sell.  A number of people from the community come through the fitting area and they watch the show and then they go back and make offers to kids on steers that didn't make the sale (usually giving a $200 to $500 dollars over market price).  The same folks that own businesses are the buyers at the FFA sale on Friday night and the 4-H sale on Saturday morning.  They are big supporters of the sale with some of them spending $20,000 to $30,000 on numerous animals that they then donate to Meals on Wheels and other charities..  They also want to see the kids and their projects because it is refreshing to see such a positive atmosphere and youth at their best.  County fair rules are that the kid can have other 4-H or FFA members help on their project, but not adults.  I think most of the buyers at our fair would be extremely dismayed to see mom and dad, overage siblings or unrelated professionals fitting on the kids' projects, and the sale would dry up to the point that having livestock projects would be pretty much pointless (lately selling steers for 2x market price, hogs 10x market price, lambs 10x market price).  I haven't heard much disagreement with this rule amongst the participants.  Yes it can be a little tough for the younger kids to fit and compete, but I have seen a few of the older kids step up and show some leadership helping out the younger kids with fitting even if they aren't sibs.  My observation is that the kids that get out a jackpot once or twice a month are (not surprisingly) generally the better fitters and showmen.  My main point is that the rule works for our local situation and is about as fair as any other rule, including no rules. 

Not arguing with you a bit, just noting some differences.  Our county premium sale isn't terminal, but very few of our buyers outside of the booster clubs and the cartel which is managed by some members of the show comitee, even attend the show, much less pay any attention to what goes on behind the scenes.  On the other hand, our county is blow and show.  We used to be covered up with fitters, but blow and show takes the wind out of their sails.  It doesn't change who's clipping them before they get there, but it almost all gets done before they get there, so showday is easy for the kids (not that there's anything keeping anyone from helping, but most kids do a lot more of it this way).  Some will grumble that the kids don't get to learn this way, but if they learn how to get a leg looking right with mousse, zoom bloom and a blower, it's a whole lot shorter leap to getting it right with adhesive.
 

vc

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Jul 24, 2007
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So-Cal
At our county fair it is blow and go, calves with hair, the 15 or 16 out of the 90, or clipped prior to the fair, the breeder we got our cattle from would come down to our county and clip calves for our club, (did not matter if he sold them or not) 3 or 4 calves would have hair the rest it was basically clean up the head, tail, neck and belly, and your done. I know allot of the FFA's have one or 2 kids that clip decent and they do their schools animals, one the animals are at the fair only exhibitors can work on the animals, any animal, seems to work out well.
If you look at the calves you can tell which kids, Have a daily routine and which kids are lucky if they feed constantly. The thing is the ones who do not put in the work are the ones who complain the most. 2 years ago our fair was won by a market heifer, first time ever. Everyone was out looking for market heifers the next year, one family bought 3 heifers from a local breeder, did not feed them right if they fed them at all, and then complained about the breeder (who had been giving them grain to help them out) telling everyone that the calves were junk and the breeder ripped them off. If you looked at the heifers you could tell they had potential but they never even got close to reaching it, out of 3 heifers 1 made weight (900).
I sold an Okay steer to a kid who did the work, put in the time and for the most part he did what he was directed to do with the calf, his calf reached its potential and he did well (better then I thought the calf would do in the beginning)
Hard work and persistence is what it takes to compete, add good cattle and experience and you can win. Slick or haired it will be the same.
Here is the calf at weaning, to me he looks his like H&!!, I sold him for 1000 and the second photo is a at about 10 months the third is 2 months prior to the fair. Hard work and persistence. The kids who do the work and really take pride in their projects win everytime, no matter if their Grand Champion, first in class or last, if they know they did their best and learned from the experience they win. IMO
 

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NHR

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Jun 12, 2007
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Rice TX
okiegirl said:
I was just discussing this thread with my 15 year old daughter and this was her reply. "Well that's crap, what about all the time I put in washing and working hair?"  Just because some other kid is lazy, I get penalized?  That's stupid."   

well said

Bingo!!! Why should a kid who has worked hard year round get penalized because other kids are lazy and play on the XBox or Playstation all day? To wet them down is just stupid (of course for some of the calves it might be the first time they have had a bath). To prevent the "Professional Fitter" just make the show Blow and Show!

As for San Antonio and Houston going to slick        several several several several      years ago it was because of the electricity in the barns not the "fairness"! Fort Worth is still a hair show and I hope it stays that way. I like to see the cattle all fitted up.

If you want everyone to get first place then go and play soccer with the 3yr olds where everyone wins. When a kid gets last in class they have a choice, work harder to get better or quit. This builds character (been there, done that)! The true winner will strive to get better and build upon lessons learned. Money does not buy you a class win or a Grand Champion.

(off my soapbox now)

 

mark tenenbaum

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Mar 23, 2009
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Virginia Sometimes Iowa and Kansas
Olson Family Shorthorns said:
Diamond G said:
In our county youth fair the steer project is a terminal project and all steers are completely clipped, no fitting. Cant even use grooming products, wash and blow dry only. Only the kids are allowed to care for/groom/handle the animals at the fairgrounds. Our steer show seems to be pretty fair since Ive seen steers bought from market win against "show bred" ones. Wish I could say that about the beef breeding show, There is one girl who always wins EVERYTHING and Ive heard she doesnt even train the animals herself as required (family owns a show cattle business) The best anyone else can  hope for is reserve GC unliess there is a category shes not entered in

Of course you've heard that. She wins.  The same things are said about lots of kids that win.  I would only show a steer in your county once, just to show that hard work makes a difference even on a slick calf. I think your county is full of a bunch of lazy whiners to be completely honest.  My 10 year old brother takes care of calves better than almost all 16-18 yr olds that I've seen. Know why? He wants it more.  If you don't want it, stop wasting your time./// Right on-I remember the little league syndrome and 8 year olds leading what (todays money would be a $30000 caf) That they didnt know. Well I got it handed to me from 9 till I was 14-and I started winning. Just like your ten year old brother-I took the knocks and learned sometimes the hard way-BUT IT WAS MY DEAL-and if it takes him till hes 18(which it wont) you should be very proud-if you want it,that cattle thing will be with you all your life-WHATS NOT TO LIKE  O0?
 

CLMAngus

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Mar 11, 2011
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Mercer, Pennsylvania
Wow this topic has some strong opinions and rightly so.  I will start off saying I just finished my Jr. career so my experience is limited but recent, and honestly I think many arguments on this topic are laughable. 

The 'fairness' being strived for is purely idyllic and unrealistic.  Just look at how fair life is for Communist believers, the idea cannot be realized in the reality of the physical world.  On that point I think that minus a few exceptions shows are extremely fair, almost to a fault.  The major complaint of many is the amount some people will spend on show animals, however it is their money to spend in whichever way they choose.  Also, I've met many families who spend the money on a steer rather than a vacation or new car etc.  These people flat out want it more than others.  (My one exception to this rule are those who buy a calf then board it far from their residence and meet it again at shows, but thats a whole 'nother essay.)  And often, not only do they want it and spend the money but they are knowledgeable enough to choose the correct calf OR ask an expert to help in selection.  If you don't know it is smart and humble to ask a pro, else why even have pros?  So point one, the big money calves winning is mostly fair with the upsets being the excitement of cattle showing or competition in general.

The hair factor has never made sense to me but many feel it unfair for someone else to have more hair on a calf.  The jealous people need to evaluate their idea of fair because hair doesn't grow too well in poor living conditions with little/no work and improper nutrition.  That hair is often the result of months of proper hair care, proper nutrition, and proper living conditions.  When lil Freddy goes to the fair and unloads a steer that has manure balls along its underline and hip, dead sunburnt hair all along its topline, a yellow/brown color wherever it is white, and has skipped too many feedings they should feel that fair is even being able to show.  And those who (like me actually) properly cared for an animal that has good, not great, hair and a proper condition should not be upset when a steer unloads with shag and a show look because that family put a bit more monetary investment.  That monetary investment is their own business and if they lose money on the animal its their own business.  If you want to beat those people badly, pony up and pay or continue to work on the upset special, just know that there is a reason upsets don't occur every day.

Finally the parent helping/not helping, the professional helping/not helping, etc is just another way for parents/juniors to play the unfair card for no reason.  The kids who have professional parents are most of the time going to outfit lil Freddy even without help, but those parents have been working all their lives on acquiring those skills and deserve to use them on their own child's project.  The only way to counter this is by spending money on a professional fitter to compete with the 'pro parents'.  The only way to learn fitting is from others, even if not directly.  There is no such thing as a self-taught fitter because they have at least seen how it should look.  I learned at 10 years old from an uncle who is a very good fitter because I wanted to be the best.  My bro and sis are still Freddies at fitting, but they know how to care for an animal and prepare it for when I fit.  They just had different priorities. 

If you noticed, the 'unfairness' all leads back to money with few exceptions.  It is the cry of the less wanting more and rather than working for it they want it given (you may be able to tell I'm not a Democrat).  The world is unfortunately getting closer and closer to this perception again.  I say again because Communism had similar ideas and we all know how those worked out. 

Excuse the lengthy post I got carried away and I do not like deleting to please others.  If you want a summary, "Money is the root of all evil complaints"
 

RyanChandler

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Jul 6, 2011
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Pottsboro, TX
GONEWEST said:
twistedhshowstock said:
Here is my 2 cents on why no rules out there are about what happens  at the show is gonna amount to a hill of beans over which steer, heifer, goat, pig, or whatever other animal wins the show.  It is because YOU CANT WIN A SHOW AT THE SHOW.  That's right, you win the show during the months leading up to a show at home.  That's why making them slick didnt change who was winning, because regardless of who wins haired or slick, the work has to be put in at home and those families or their employees were getting the work done months before the show.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but the above would be a bunch of hog wash. Perhaps there was a time when you could out work someone. It's no different than saying a football team will be better because they work harder in the weight room. EVERYONE who is able to compete, works hard in the weight room. You have to be able to do that just to stay on the field. Same with show calves. Just to COMPETE you have to do your homework. For some reason you assume that someone who wins worked harder than someone who didn't. I HATE to hear a judge say during showmanship that a kid needs to do his homework and get the calf to behave or set up better. That guy doesn't have the first clue to what that kid does at home. Maybe the heifer is coming into heat, maybe something unusual to him has him spooked, maybe he don't like the judges Old Spice. Why not just say the kids calf didn't behave for him today rather than accuse the kids of being lazy? But I digress.

The point is EVERYONE who is a serious competitor does the homework. There are no secrets anymore. If you don't think these people who buy $30,000 steers do their home work or know how to feed one,  your head is in the sand. I asked a guy $2500 for a calf once and he told me it was too much. His bunch would just buy a cheap one and "beat the rest with a feed bucket." OOOOOOO K. I got news for him. There are a million other people out there with a feed bucket. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken pookie. There might have been a time when you knew something other people didn't know, when kids weren't as competitive as they are today when that would work. But today, if you don't know how to take care of one or how to feed one its because you are just starting or it's your own fault. EVERYONE that has a chance at all does their homework.

Lets get back to the point of the original post. The specific rule that I mentioned allowed the immediate family to help with the calf. Take two steers that arrive on the fairgrounds as an equals. One is shown by a ten year old who's parents include a nurse and a guy who sells..................ice to Eskimos. The other steer is owned by an 18 year old who's parents sell club calves as their profession. Who is going to win? You know the 10 year old doesn't stand a chance. My point is that it is the fault of the people who made the rules that this is true, not the fact that one family are professional cattlemen. The point is that although the first family may have done everything right just and worked just as hard as the professional cattle family, they don't have the  chance to have their child rewarded DUE TO THE RULES set up by "Do Gooders" who are trying to make it fair. If they allowed whom ever the family wanted to fit the calf so it could be presented the best it could possibly be, THEN it would be fair whether the family CHOSE to or not.

And that is NOT why slick steers in TX are won by the same families. What work is there for a kid to a slick calf? Clean the stall,  throw some feed in a trough and make sure it has water? You have to look at it and feed it correctly? It's not rocket surgery, no one has a patent on that. It's because the same people who are willing to buy the best animals always would no matter if they had hair or not. And because they buy them from the same guys that have the right connections to get it done. Doesn't change a thing. Just takes the "homework" out of the project for the kids and FOR ME that is the most important part.





 I am going to tell you this, a professional fit job has never made the difference in any animal winning or losing the show.

I am nominating this for the most asinine statement ever made on steer planet.If its not important, tell me why Sullivans are wealthy from the sale of show supplys? Have they all DUPED us? Can we just bring one in any old way and compete? Why was Kirk Stierwalt able to make a profession from fitting cattle. Why does he always say "There is fitting to show and then there is fitting to win?" Maybe you could run the statement by him that fitting never won a show. I sincerely think the story of your own experience is very admirable. I really do. And I have zero problem with anyone who wants to do it that way, thinks that's important. However, FORCING someone else to do that because you either can't afford to hire someone or think you shouldn't isn't right. You said it wasn't the fit job that got you beat, it was the quality of the animal. So lets say you were 12 and you had the steer that won at Fort Worth last year. Do you think it would have won if YOU had glued it? Do you think there is a reason that Travis fit that steer instead of the boy who owned it and led it in? What would that reason be? You think it's just because he likes the smell of adhesive in the morning? It makes a difference. Your dang right it does.  And if hiring a pro isn't an option for some, lets even say most, does that mean that coolers and with huge electric bills should be outlawed as well? What about these aluminum chutes that cost more than a steel chute? How far are you gonna take it? That all do not have the same shouldn't be a deciding factor.

If it did then the judge wasn't worth the space he was taking up because he wasn't evaluating cattle, he was playing politics of some sort and it didn't matter how good the calf under the hair was anyway.  People cheat at everything, rules and laws never stopped them, so you cant make rules to make things fair, its sad but true.  
Now on that note you all know that I am a staunch supporter that at any show where a kid has to be a 4-H or FFA member then that animal was supposed to be a project and as it is a project then that child should be expected to learn something.  I used to be a fan of those shows requiring kids to turn in a project book at the show, but that was years ago when I was young and naive before I was old enough to realize that all the other kids' moms were doing their record books for them.  I was at a show one time that I believe it was the 4-H show, before the kids were ell for premiums or to make sale they had to go through an interview that asked questions about their project.  I liked that idea, but then I realized that at bigger shows it would be a logistical nightmare to interview all those kids. So there really is no perfect plan, but everyone is going to complain until their version of perfect exists.  

Now just a few sidenotes, hiring a fitter  isn't always a choice a family can make.  Some families want their kids to have the experience but just cant afford the fitters, etc.  Funny thing is those people usually have everything going against them yet they work their tails off to be in the lower end of the class, and they are just happy to be there.   As far as kids fitting their own, yes its possible, I grew up with a single mother on a teachers salary who never received child support and lost everything in the divorce.  I was one of those kids just happy to be there, I never had a pro fitter, I was lucky enough to have some people close to me that were fairly good with what they did.  They helped me the first couple years to get my calves clipped a few days before I left for a show, but after that I was own my own.  I was lucky enough to have a few small time breeders that had fairly decent cattle that started either selling to me cheap or just letting me take calves to show.  I never once had any outside help at a show except for maybe Louivilles a few times when I went with a group and we helped each other, but even at  our state shows, I did it all myself.  My mom filing feed pans or water buckets or holding stuff for me was about the extent of the help that I had.  Now the most I ever had at a show was 2 or 3, mainly because I couldnt afford any more, but also because I knew I couldnt handle anymore by myself.  And you know what I got it all done, my cattle were always ready by the time they needed to be in the ring, it was never what many of you would consider a "pro"job, but they looked good and I never once got beat because the fit job wasnt good enough.  Now I never won any major shows, but I did move to the top of some classes at some good sized shows, won some classes at our state shows, middle of classes at Louisville.  But that was honestly the most I could of ever hoped for from those calves.  So it is doable, and not hiring a pro is not  choice, sometimes it isnt an option.  And you know what looking back I am glad it wasnt an option for me, because I learned SO much having to do it myself.  That is my reward, because I can look at most of the folks my age that I showed against that got the banner/buckle type rewards and know that they didnt walk away with half the knowledge or abilility that I did.


Again, I sincerely admire your experience. It's awesome that you were able to do well alone and take pride in that.  But don't make everyone else. And I am sure you are correct that you didn't lose because  of a fitter. But if you had animals that were equal to those that won and you had competed against one presented better then indeed you would have lost because of a better fitter. It shouldn't matter that it isn't an option for everyone. Does "from each according to their ability, to each according to his need" sound familiar to you? You are right that there are people who would show cattle for ever no matter the place they come in, they would play a sport and practice every day even if they had to sit on the bench the whole time. There are those that would play the tuba endlessly to sit in  he last chair. But I propose that they are in the minority. And if your goal is for this project to grow and continue then you need to make it as easy as you can for as many as can to have success by what ever definition that defines it. You certainly always seem like a benevolent person. If you were at a show and a family that you knew was new, less experienced, you'd help them learn. However if you showed under the rule that I described, you couldn't. And so those people stay at the bottom because it is difficult and time consuming to learn without help. And I propose that MOST kids, if not successful in some measure at what ever they undertake, will seek another activity until they find something they can have success at. I am sure you like me see all the time families showing cattle that would be similar in context to a kid playing baseball in blue jeans when everyone else has a uniform. They need to be helped and taught. Not placed all alone and left to fend for themselves by some rule that is designed to make it "fair for all."

And the part about your reward and the pride you have that you did it all on your own and have so much more knowledge and ability than someone who  had the banner/buckle as their reward.....that same logic says that I might not have gotten that job, but I didn't hire a professional resume writer OR an interview coach. By golly I didn't get it all by myself.  I might not have gotten that scholarship, but dang if I am going to a tutor to get help get my grades up, I'm gonna not get it all by myself.  and I might not have gotten into that school I wanted to, but by golly I didn't take a course to help me prepare for the MCAT, I flubbed that bad boy all on my own!  You can take all of that pride and knowledge and ability along with a dollar down to the store on the corner and buy a Coke. It should be up to the parent what "lesson" you want the kid to learn at the fair. Not the government telling them they know what is best for them. Personally I like the one that says" In life there will always be someone wealthier than you, smarter than you, better looking than you, someone physically able to work harder than you. You will have to compete with them every day of your life. Now would be a good time to do learn how to do it.  Or you could move to FL and participate in the state steer show where everything is equal, rodeo stock don't need fitting and wouldn't grow hair if you put them in the freezer.


And a final thought in this long diatribe. LOL.  I agree that making the shows slick here in Texas  slick or blow and go didnt accomplish the intentions of evening the playing field, but for other reasons  I think its the best decision some shows ever made.  Have you ever been in the barns at Houston during the steer and heifer shows? Ever noticed how they are piled on top of each other like sardines? Now imagine what it would be like if we had to get chutes in there, or even have enough space to move around one and fit without a chute.  Not to mention the divas  who always think they are more important and should be entitled to twice as much space  as everyone else.  Like I said slick or full fit dont really matter to me, I do like workiing hair on one.  But shows like Houston would be a train wreck if you opened it up and let people start trying to fit in there.
I agree w/ ya completely, but it seems almost hypocritical of you to oppose govt intervention only when its something you disagree with.  Seems you were beating a different drum here:  http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/help-me-vote-odama-out/75/
 
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