Trying times

[BIGTEX]

Only 50% on Men and women marriages. I wonder what the % would be for Homosexuals? (much less I assume)Let them get married is the states that allow it and let them see what divorce does to their money. God will sort it out in the end. Who are we to judge?


I heard a joke one time, Lisa Lampanelli asked two gay guys how long they had been dating and they said 1 month. Lisa said "that's like 3 years in gay"

 

[oakview]

Less than10% of my original post was devoted to gay marriages.  I was trying to emphasize that the courts and our elected officials too often determine how we live our lives with little or no thought given to what the majority of the citizens think.  I am sick of those who think they are 'smarter than the rest of us' make decisions for us with no regard to what we want.  The post was in no way meant to be a referendum on gay marriage.  Christians should accept all, but don't expect us to condone behavior.  I see people sin every day, people see me sin every day.  We ask forgiveness for others and ourselves.  This season should serve as a reminder to us all.

 

[aj]

Point taken.

 

[TJ]

How come when Homosexual issues are discussed Christianity is always brought into the picture?

Ask aj why... he was the one who brought it up.    

Aren't all Men and all Women sinners?

Yes they all are, but that does not make ANY habitual sin, with absolutely no remorse, ever OK. 

Using the "all have sinned" & "prejudice" arguments to make homosexual marriage OK is like saying that a person can have more than 1 marriage partner at one time.  I mean why isn't arresting a polygamist being prejudice too?  Some of them are born with a desire to "love many people" & it's just the natural thing for them.  Or what about drug addicts who possess illegal drugs?  Some of them were born as "crack babies" & naturally crave drugs.  Isn't that prejudice & cruel to arrest them for possession?  After all, they are addicted & crave the stuff.  I could go on & on...

But the truth is, polygamy is wrong, as is getting high, & a great number of other things.  Why?  Not because I said so or because any elected official said so, but because God said so. 


And finally, if anybody is prejudice, it's clear to me that it is those who don't like Christians.  In this day and age, Christians get bashed or labeled every bit as much as any homosexual & probably more so.  Again, nobody said anything about "beating anybody up" (except aj) & nobody said anything about "hating" gays (except BJN), but several have bashed Christians & they threw out "labels" (bible beaters, prejudice, etc).   My self personally, I probably have had more contact with homosexual & bisexual people than 98% of the people on this board.  I get a long with them & I care for many of them, I just don't accept or like their lifestyle.  I could name names of homosexual people who would say that I have never been prejudice towards them at all... in fact, some would tell you that I am their friend or buddy!  They don't like my lifestyle & I don't like theirs, but we can be friendly & we get a long well.  With that said, claiming that I am prejudice because I don't agree with homosexual marriage, is hypocritical & it is also incorrect. 

 

[Jill]

I would expect something like this to go in California, I wouldn't in a million years have thought Iowa would pass it, that is a SHAME!

 

[knabe]

How come when Homosexual issues are discussed Christianity is always brought into the picture? Aren't all Men and all Women sinners?

I do think BJN is right in thinking some of you are displaying your prejudice.

What makes Iowa different from California is that the Iowa Supreme Court made that decision and in California it was voted by the people which was lobbied hard by the Mormon Church.

Marriage under God's law and Government law should always be seperated like everything else. I don't understand why people get so paranoid about this. Equal rights and equal benefits is only fair IMO.

the notion that governments aren't created based on discrimination is false.

both the left and the right care NOTHING for equal rights. 

there are a couple of people who post here that discriminate based on other's views.  where's the equality there?

what's wrong with lobbying?  the left lobbied just as hard if not harder for their agenda as they own the courts and the schools.  using the argument that someone lobbied for something is a red herring.  the left is perpetually lobbying.  it's their full time job supported by george soros, the wizard for obama.

 

[knabe]

    The Cybersecurity Act of 2009 (PDF) gives the president the ability to “declare a cybersecurity emergency” and shut down or limit Internet traffic in any “critical” information network “in the interest of national security.” The bill does not define a critical information network or a cybersecurity emergency. That definition would be left to the president.

    The bill does not only add to the power of the president. It also grants the Secretary of Commerce “access to all relevant data concerning [critical] networks without regard to any provision of law, regulation, rule, or policy restricting such access.” This means he or she can monitor or access any data on private or public networks without regard to privacy laws.

i wonder if bush would have proposed this what the press would be saying.  great, we have to leave it up to someone we can't criticize unless we run for senate to determine what's what.

folks, your country is gone.  you better get off your collective duff.  oh, wait, we must be distracted by gay marriage while all this other stuff is passed under our nose.  THAT is the real agenda of the left.  THAT's why we will have violence again, intolerance.

 

[OH Breeder]

I don't hate homosexuals but I don't think that there lifestyle is best for raising a child.  I think that this shouldn't be a choice of the courts, but a choice of the people.  Most people do not want marriage to be tarnished by letting people of the same sex marry.  Just look at of all places California where they voted against same sex marriage.  Let the citizens of Iowa decide not a couple of people that see themselves as all mighty.   

LETS seperate something very quickly raising children and gay marrage. I worked in an inner city ER for quiet a long time. What i saw many times would make your skin crawl. I THINK PARENTS NEED A LICENSE! JUST because someone is heterosexual and can reproduce does NOT mean they are good parents.( How about the OCto mom.) She is a better parent than a lesbian couple that want to raise a child? There are so many children who need a home and quiet a few kids in abusive homes, i personally don't care what your lifestyle is. There are lots of children who need loving homes. I know quiet a few gay and straight folks who have adopted and had surrogate mothers to have children AND GO TO CHURCH. Yes, gay people that go to church. I do not think it is your right or anyone esles to decide who should raise a child based on sexual preference. If that is the case, then lets license straight parents to have children.

 

[knabe]

I do not think it is your right or anyone esles to decide who should raise a child based on sexual preference.

why not?  we allow abortion?  the unborn might want to ask "I do not think it is your right or anyone else's to kill me (the unborn child)?"

not a rhetorical response.  would actually like logical response.

when you sell an animal, you have rights to determine where it goes.  why not a human?  taking away input is a denial of freedom.  there's plenty of people fully willing to give children to gay people.  it's not like there is a shortage.  why do we have to impose our views everywhere possible?  50% of all black pregnancies are aborted.  seems like a supply of extra humans is available.

 

[OH Breeder]

I do not think it is your right or anyone esles to decide who should raise a child based on sexual preference.

why not?  we allow abortion?  the unborn might want to ask "I do not think it is your right or anyone else's to kill me (the unborn child)?"

not a rhetorical response.  would actually like logical response.

when you sell an animal, you have rights to determine where it goes.  why not a human?  taking away input is a denial of freedom.  there's plenty of people fully willing to give children to gay people.  it's not like there is a shortage.  why do we have to impose our views everywhere possible?  50% of all black pregnancies are aborted.  seems like a supply of extra humans is available.

Listen Knabe, I am not a woman nor would I want to tell them what to do with their Uterus. Abortion is not the issue I am discussing.Now you sound like a politician.  It does not have anything to do with my statement. Are you willing as a "straight" couple to take on all the other unwanted children born living in foster homes or children's homes? I am not mixing the issues. Abortion or adoption etc. My point, adoption or child bearing has noting to do with sexual preference.

I have also triage the 12 year girl who was sexual abused by her father and is pregnant. What do you do? Abort or not?

 

[knabe]

Listen Knabe, I am not a woman nor would I want to tell them what to do with their Uterus. Abortion is not the issue I am discussing.Now you sound like a politician.  It does not have anything to do with my statement. Are you willing as a "straight" couple to take on all the other unwanted children born living in foster homes or children's homes? I am not mixing the issues. Abortion or adoption etc. My point, adoption or child bearing has noting to do with sexual preference.

I have also triage the 12 year girl who was sexual abused by her father and is pregnant. What do you do? Abort or not?
[/quote]

Listen OH Breeder, I am not a fetus and I would not want anyone to tell me whether or not I can live.

Why are not my views equal to yours?

Your point is that sexual preference has nothing to do with parenting.  Fair enough.  I think it does.  Why should your view supercede mine?

here's some other views.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090331.wlconsensual31art1835/BNStory/lifeFamily/home

"According to the growing consensual living movement, parents and children have equal say in family life - even at bedtime, Adriana Barton reports."
In the consensual living model, father doesn't know best. Neither does mom. Instead, parents and children are equal partners in family life, according to the principles laid out at consensual-living.com."

why even have parents at all?  why not just turn over everything to the state.

you sound like a politician as well.  whenever you get caught on applying a principle to a different situation, you claim apples and oranges.  on one hand you want to restrict freedom, on the other, you want more freedom.  which is it?  of course the answer is arbitrary.

to engage your last comment, what you are trying to do is the same issue i am trying to bring up which is what over arching logic can be used to solve these problems rather than use language like [size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt]LISTEN KNABE.....[/size][/size][/size][/size]

so, regarding sexual abuse, what i would like to do is see if one could save the embryo, reimplant it and let someone adopt it without anyone knowing what instead of just killing it.  it can't be that much more difficult to save the embryo than just aborting it.  bet you never heard of that solution have you?  why not try and find solutions for these unwanted children rather than just killing them because they can't vote.  I'm pretty sure that you would be outvoted by unborn fetuses if they could vote.

 

[OH Breeder]

Listen Knabe, I am not a woman nor would I want to tell them what to do with their Uterus. Abortion is not the issue I am discussing.Now you sound like a politician.  It does not have anything to do with my statement. Are you willing as a "straight" couple to take on all the other unwanted children born living in foster homes or children's homes? I am not mixing the issues. Abortion or adoption etc. My point, adoption or child bearing has noting to do with sexual preference.

I have also triage the 12 year girl who was sexual abused by her father and is pregnant. What do you do? Abort or not?

Listen OH Breeder, I am not a fetus and I would not want anyone to tell me whether or not I can live.

Why are not my views equal to yours?

Your point is that sexual preference has nothing to do with parenting.  Fair enough.  I think it does.  Why should your view supercede mine?

here's some other views.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090331.wlconsensual31art1835/BNStory/lifeFamily/home

"According to the growing consensual living movement, parents and children have equal say in family life - even at bedtime, Adriana Barton reports."
In the consensual living model, father doesn't know best. Neither does mom. Instead, parents and children are equal partners in family life, according to the principles laid out at consensual-living.com."

why even have parents at all?  why not just turn over everything to the state.

you sound like a politician as well.  whenever you get caught on applying a principle to a different situation, you claim apples and oranges.  on one hand you want to restrict freedom, on the other, you want more freedom.  which is it?  of course the answer is arbitrary.

to engage your last comment, what you are trying to do is the same issue i am trying to bring up which is what over arching logic can be used to solve these problems rather than use language like [size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt]LISTEN KNABE.....[/size][/size][/size][/size] THIS WAS TO DRAW YOUR ATTENTION - you did the same thing to me. I am discussing adoption and you bring up abortion? Has nothing to do with what I was saying.
so, regarding sexual abuse, what i would like to do is see if one could save the embryo, reimplant it and let someone adopt it without anyone knowing what instead of just killing it.  it can't be that much more difficult to save the embryo than just aborting it.  bet you never heard of that solution have you?  why not try and find solutions for these unwanted children rather than just killing them because they can't vote.  I'm pretty sure that you would be outvoted by unborn fetuses if they could vote.



[/quote]

WHat? ???
Did I say my view was superior?.................NO
Did I say you were wrong?.................NO
I am not following your logic at all.  My point was exactly as you state, if you want to mandate that only a married, heterosexual couple can have a child a lot of children are missing out on loving homes. 
As far as research, you know it can be manipulated to meet one's needs. I pretty much listen to what seems logical and look at real life. THe article you site is about a bunch of parents who basically let there kids do what ever? I wasn't raised that way. Can't comment because it is forgein to me and I don't have a child.

When did I get "CAUGHT" applying principles. If you read my post most generally I steer CLEAR of sex, politics and religion. My mother always said you don't discuss them with strangers, only among friends and I have learned in life that is TRUE. So, I am not sure when else I got CAUGHT applying any principles?

Re-read your statement on flushing a 12 year preg. child. Are you really serious? SPend 12 hours in an ER then tell me how you feel at the end of the day. I am not making this personal, but some how you want to make this personal. I am only offering a opinion. My opinion and experience.

 

[knabe]

I am not following your logic at all.  My point was exactly as you state, if you want to mandate that only a married, heterosexual couple can have a child a lot of children are missing out on loving homes.  i am not saying that, what i am saying is that if someone with a baby wants to stipulate that, they can and shouldn't be berated by someone who thinks they shouldn't have any input.  there are plenty of people that won't have that stipulation since , in general the population between gays and hets isn't random.  that may change in the future for whatever reason.

As far as research, you know it can be manipulated to meet one's needs. I pretty much listen to what seems logical and look at real life. THe article you site is about a bunch of parents who basically let there kids do what ever? I wasn't raised that way. Can't comment because it is forgein to me and I don't have a child.  my only point linking that article is the direction society is moving.

When did I get "CAUGHT" applying principles. my only point here is searching for overriding principles.  there always seems to be reasons for exceptions, which i'm actually saying is ok, but just acknowledge them.  i'm actually not so concnerned about people's decisions, only that it is impossible to be 100% consistent applying one's logic.

Re-read your statement on flushing a 12 year preg. child. Are you really serious? SPend 12 hours in an ER then tell me how you feel at the end of the day. I am not making this personal, but some how you want to make this personal. I am not making this personal, I am only offering a opinion. My opinion and experience. agree.  mine is only my opinion and experience as well, though since my experience on that is something i dont' want to get into for broad consumption.

i respect your opinions and willingness to discuss.

 

[chambero]

In my opinion, marriage is explicitly defined in the bible and other religous texts (I think its also explicity defined in Jewish and Islam texts, I wonder about eastern religons). Anyway,  I think that is justification enough that our legal system should not be redefining it.  It's between man and woman.  Period.  I believe anything else is wrong.  I find it humorous that liberal groups can lobby without end, organize grass roots movements, etc; but the Mormon church is getting raked over the coals for doing the same thing in California.  Talk about not liking a dose of your own medicine!

That being said, as much as I don't like it, I'm ok with there being some legal category to cover alternative lifestyles.  Just don't call it marriage.  It ain't going away so we better figure out some way to deal with it.

OH Breeder is completely right about the child adoption thing though.  My wife owned a daycare center for years.  What some kids go through is beyond belief - even in small town rural Texas.  And that is orders of magnitude better than what happens to many in urban areas.

I don't like it, I wish it wasn't the truth, but what is worse about being a child being raised by two women instead of one by herself?  That's the reality of what happens.  Men aren't around anyway most of the time.  I still contend that's our biggest problem with our socieity right now.  So many kids are completely missing out on positive male influences - emphasis on the positive part.  Sterilization ought to be a legal tool.  And that's even coming from a Catholic  .

 

[knabe]

OH Breeder is completely right about the child adoption thing though.  My wife owned a daycare center for years.  What some kids go through is beyond belief - even in small town rural Texas.  And that is orders of magnitude better than what happens to many in urban areas.

two of my cousins (who lived in a town of 250) are adopted and my sister married an adopted man whose sister was also adopted. 

it has been complete hell for over 50 years with behavior and health issues.

i have nothing but respect for those who adopt, the parents who give up their children, but mostly, the kids themselves.

 

[chambero]

There are several couples in my hometown that adopted children from the former Soviet Union several years ago.  It was faster, cheaper, and you could get caucasion male babies.  They got those kids over here and they had their hands full.  Those babies weren't use to any stimulation whatsoever - no being held, no noise, no TV, no love or attention of any kind other than being fed and an occassional diaper change.  They were basically born alcoholics because of what their biological mothers did.  They could not handle the stimulation they are exposed to here.  I don't know how they are doing now as elementary kids, but those parents all had to really change their lifestyles to allow those babies to adjust. 

Kids that are put up for adoption can't help but be messed up.  It takes a very special family to help a child overcome what they've been through.  And Knabe your right, most of the time it probably doesn't work.

Whether you believe or not, the real benefit of religion (really any of them) to society is that it creates a social framework to help us help ourselves that does work.  It's never perfect, but if you follow the rules established for the family in religion in general life works better.  Children are mean to be raised by a husband and wife.  Children tend to "break" when they aren't - in many, many ways.  Husbands aren't supposed to be mean and neither are wives.  Marriages aren't supposed to end in divorce.  Bad things happen when they do.  Sometimes worse things happen if they don't.

We're screwed up (of course society always has been) and far from perfect.  It's hard for anyone to figure out what to do to fix broken people and children.  Often there are no good answers.

 

[Jill]

.

I have also triage the 12 year girl who was sexual abused by her father and is pregnant. What do you do? Abort or not?

You know I consider myself a stanch anti-abortion conservative, but you bring up a very good point and for me this is a real gray area that I do struggle with, I don't have an answer, good point.

 

[OH Breeder]

.

I have also triage the 12 year girl who was sexual abused by her father and is pregnant. What do you do? Abort or not?

You know I consider myself a stanch anti-abortion conservative, but you bring up a very good point and for me this is a real gray area that I do struggle with, I don't have an answer, good point.

Sad thing Jill is that I didn't see this once, I saw it a couple of times. I had to be a professional and treat the families including the mother with respect and due diligence when all I really wanted to do was castrate the father. I delivered a premature baby out of a 14 year old that then was life flighted etc. I had to be her coach her midwife etc. Mom dropped and ran. I was brought up in a very strong christian home. There was allot of things that made me struggle with my core values. What I decided is I had a job to do and deliver care irregardless of my beliefs. So, even the skin head natzi I took the best care I could. Granted there were days it was trying,but that is probably why I am not in the ER anymore. I got burnt out.

Knabe, I am not saying birth mothers should'nt choose or should not. That is usually a case of circumstances. In my experience the courts put them in foster care and evaluate the mother. To often though children fall through the cracks and we the cases we had in Florida. I would take a lesbian couple raising a child over the death of one.
But let me offer you a case that recently occurred in a state close to Ohio.
A couple adopted a little girl from a crack addicted mother. She signed all parental rights away and continued on crack. Three years later she got clean and wanted to petition the court after the child had lived with a lesbian couple for four years to get her child back stating the child could now be better raised by her. She found "the Lord" (not being critical of that, I am glad she did) and wanted to reclaim her child. The child was examined by everyone and said to be "normal" well developed 4 yr old. Why should this mother be allowed to come back and "take" her child away from them. I know adoptive parents fear this happening and it is there worse nightmare.

 

[linnettejane]

.

I have also triage the 12 year girl who was sexual abused by her father and is pregnant. What do you do? Abort or not?

You know I consider myself a stanch anti-abortion conservative, but you bring up a very good point and for me this is a real gray area that I do struggle with, I don't have an answer, good point.

Sad thing Jill is that I didn't see this once, I saw it a couple of times. I had to be a professional and treat the families including the mother with respect and due diligence when all I really wanted to do was castrate the father. I delivered a premature baby out of a 14 year old that then was life flighted etc. I had to be her coach her midwife etc. Mom dropped and ran. I was brought up in a very strong christian home. There was allot of things that made me struggle with my core values. What I decided is I had a job to do and deliver care irregardless of my beliefs. So, even the skin head natzi I took the best care I could. Granted there were days it was trying,but that is probably why I am not in the ER anymore. I got burnt out.

Knabe, I am not saying birth mothers should'nt choose or should not. That is usually a case of circumstances. In my experience the courts put them in foster care and evaluate the mother. To often though children fall through the cracks and we the cases we had in Florida. I would take a lesbian couple raising a child over the death of one.
But let me offer you a case that recently occurred in a state close to Ohio.
A couple adopted a little girl from a crack addicted mother. She signed all parental rights away and continued on crack. Three years later she got clean and wanted to petition the court after the child had lived with a lesbian couple for four years to get her child back stating the child could now be better raised by her. She found "the Lord" (not being critical of that, I am glad she did) and wanted to reclaim her child. The child was examined by everyone and said to be "normal" well developed 4 yr old. Why should this mother be allowed to come back and "take" her child away from them. I know adoptive parents fear this happening and it is there worse nightmare.

ok,so this may not be exactly what this thread is about...but i just want to reply to a comment made....sorry if i go off topic...

i have a very dear friend who just adopted a little boy from Guatemala....and it was for that very reason she went out of country...the way i understand it is this can happen with any adoption in the US...and who could stand to put all their heart and sole into a child and then a few years later have the biological parent come back and rip the child right out of your arms....its situations, laws, circumstances, whatever you want to call it, like this that America's adoption and foster programs are in the shape they are in...yes, my friend had to go through alot of extra red tape and expenses by going out of the country, and the whole process took a little over a year...but the day she got him...he was her's...forever...period.

and i think we have so many kids in foster care for this very reason....we should be putting the kids first...what's best for them...i may catch some grief for this, but i believe if you give your kid up, you should not be allowed to get it back, ever...

and i also think this "take the kid away give them back" seesaw is a load of crap too...ive seen first hand the damage it can do....some young girl  has a baby...she cant handle it...gets in trouble or over her head...has it taken away...baby sent to foster care....mother straightens up for a while...kid comes back...mother gets in trouble again....back to foster care.... going from foster home to so called home back to foster home again...year after year...move after move...school change after school change...these kids never get to stay in one place long enough to establish any kind of normalcy(i spell checked that, and it still doesnt look right)...and this will be their life for the next 18 years...why why why do "we" (and i mean we as a society) do this to "our" children?

someone posted a list of questions that keep them up at night....this is what keeps me up at night.... 

 

[knabe]

let me just say i have the utmost respect for OH Breeder.

as far as reclaiming goes, from my limited experience, this doesn't go so well for the child until they can handle it later as a grown up, and even then it is really tough.  i can't stand it on tv when everything works out fine.  i just haven't seen this to personally be the case.  reclaiming a child, they should just have another one.  as for the same sex couple, the kid doesn't get a sampling of how the other sex functions.  it took me a while to figure out that boys and girls were different mentally and negotiate from different strengths.  i still for the most part don't care that girls are different (from boys) if they can't tolerate that men are different.  there simply is too much white hetersexual male bashing and when we bash back, people get waaaaaaaaaaaaay more offended than we do for similar bashing. if people expect equality, you gotta take the good and the bad equally.  but, it's just cool to bash males.  i'm basically sick of it.  we as a society have gone too far being girls.  if we want equality, why do we want all are children to act like girls?