What would the Shorthorn breed look like today if Improver was never imported

[aj]

It could be interesting.

 

[aj]

How many genetic defects did he carry? Without him there would not have been a Double Stuff? But wouldn't we have still had the Outcast th mutation......or not? Would the breed have taken off.......in the club calf deal without Double Stuff?

 

[knabe]

What would the world be like if aj were Adolfo hitler or Margaret Sanger.

 

[knabe]

How many genetic defects do you carry aj?


If it's just one, that's enough to apply the same principle.

 

[knabe]

It could be interesting.


Apply that same principle to everyone and there would be no people, no animals, no nothing.


The process that makes defects, also makes improvements.


Time and time again, your pull toy comments reveal your lack of intellect.

 

[aj]

Its a question......not a comment?

 

[shortyjock89]

Does no Improver mean no Irish cattle at all being imported? There would have been a bull to fill the vacancy IMO. 

  Without Improver, there is no Heatseeker, and with no Heatseeker, there is no Heat Wave, and then where is the clubby industry in general? 

 

[librarian]

Wellll.... What if Improver hadn't been 50 percent Clare Man? What if Clare Man hadn't been a TH carrier? Seems like there had to be a lot of silent Defective alleles in the females of the time for the defects to become so widespread. Or in the females of the time that were being bred to Improver progeny. The idea that all this came from one importation of one animal seems sort of simplistic.
If anything is to blame, it's "the look" being something nature selects against.

 

[oakview]

Every time we make a mating decision, we are trying combine two animals with a specific goal in mind for the resulting offspring, trying to get the "look" we want.  If it wasn't Improver, it would have been something else.  I saw Improver and Dividend in Denver many years ago.  Dividend appeared to be the larger framed, stretchier bull and Improver was the square hipped, more moderate bull.  Larger frames were in style, so Dividend was more widely used, at least in the States.  When types came back around, there was Improver to moderate a little bit.  You could ask the same question about many bulls in many breeds.  Anxiety 4th?  Signal?  Cunia?  Ildeno?  Pick a breed.  It makes no difference.  If somebody wants a "look", they'll find the breeding pieces to make it.  For better or worse. 

 

[knabe]

  Without Improver, there is no Heatseeker, and with no Heatseeker, there is no Heat Wave, and then where is the clubby industry in general?

aj wants the clubby industry to go away.

but he won't go away.

sort of built in hypocrisy.

 

[GM]

Modern showring type shorthorns would look the same.  They are basically a mix of the following:

Dual shorthorns
Maine (through CD, Rose, and Nobody's Fool)
Dividend (through CD, Dreamboat, Rose)
Chi (through Rodeo Drive and Dreamboat)

The Improver in the pedigrees, while a very small portion, are probably 100% matings that took place in Ireland (or were just drawn up on pedigrees from Ireland)

Shorthorn contribution to clubby world would be similar but would have come through Bulls like Steermaker, Touché, and Leader instead of Irish Pride and Improver 145

 

[knabe]

agree.

aj doesn't like show cattle.

that won't change either.

it's probably a defect.

good thing he's not collected.

probably sterile anyway.

 

[knabe]

simplistic.

describes aj in one word.

 

[aj]

If there were no heatwave or double stuff......would the th carrier been delivered to the USA by a galloway? Would the outcast mutation been discovered and used to fill the void. Would clube calves all have a little different shape? I can't remember which bull was popular first Double Stuff or heat seeker. Did Shorthorn registrations increase after Double Stuff was discovered? Seemed like to me interestin shorthorns in the club calf world exploded after Double stuff. Is it accepted that Improver started the dsc line of cattle? Would pha have spread as badly without the use of Doublestuff? Or did the fact of Doublestuff being a th carrier AND pha carrier become part of the larger increase of pha being spread around? Or if doublestuff had been th free and pha positive....would people have used him near as much. Is Doublestuff a ds carrier? I kinda lost track of the latest thinking or progression of pedigrees on the ds deal.

 

[aj]

Wasn't one of the modern "leader" bulls a ds carrier.....that came from Improver? Was touche or steermaker ds carriers? Didn't steermaker go back to the ds carrier leader bull that went back to Improver? Wasn't Improver thought to be carriers of th and ds while Double Stuff was a carrier of th,pha,monkey mouth and the nazi stepper deal. Anyone have touche's or steermakers registration numbers handy.....or full names.

 

[librarian]

I think TH came in big time with Galloways the same time it came in with Improver. Galloway has been a cheat for fixing flat sided cattle forever.
I just don't see those barrel characteristics in Improver. I can't figure out how he became so influential other than his Galloway atoms attracting to other Galloway atoms in the cows.

 

[librarian]

I was just looking at Steermaker last night, wondering if anyone used him anymore. Reg# xAR14643
http://sekgenetics.mybigcommerce.com/mb-steer-maker-816/

 

[GM]

I think TH came in big time with Galloways the same time it came in with Improver. Galloway has been a cheat for fixing flat sided cattle forever.
I just don't see those barrel characteristics in Improver. I can't figure out how he became so influential other than his Galloway atoms attracting to other Galloway atoms in the cows.

There are other pictures of old Improver that show how thick and muscular he was.  I think this promo pic was used because it made him look like he had more frame and elevation.  Had to fit in with what was popular in the era.  Improver came back in style in the 90's when people wanted smaller and wider.

 

[oakview]

Didn't the Shorthorn steer industry really take off after the roan steer won Denver many years ago?  Wasn't he shown by the Horn family and sired by Len Ru TA Leader?  TA Leader was a Dividend out of an Improver cow.  I believe he's a DS carrier and has a full brother that's THC.  I think the steer that won Denver was well before Double Stuff.  I need to check, but I think Double Stuff was a '93 and Heat Seeker was a few years after that.

GM is in agreement with me on his assessment of Improver.

 

[librarian]

My cows are full of Improver 13 so I'm not throwing stones. Too bad those other photos are not more available. Improver 57 seems like a replica. Was he thicker in person as well?
It's possible that Improvers nicked good with the old thicker dual purpose type and a lot of the type we admire came from them? Maybe they were too rare by the 70"s to have been a factor.