Why continue to breed TH and PHA carriers?

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Gators Rule

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I certainly do not intend to start an argument, but as I am sitting here reading on TH and PHA genetic defects, the question just keeps poppinig up.  Why do people continue to breed genetically defected cattle?    I've been involved in raising Quarter Horses for years now, and the QH industry finally had to start dealing with HYPP (Impressive bloodlines), because it was a mess when when those seizures happened.

Sooooo....I'll pose the question here.  Why are we breeding these cattle when we know there is a problem?  Is it the money?  Do the defects bring us a trait that we must have....and can't get from the "clean" cattle?

Just curious...

David
 

SFASUshowman

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Much like HYPP in the QH industry(I also raise QH's) or the Stress Gene in the showpig industry, TH and PHA themselves bring nothing to the industry.  The problem is that a lot of animals that carry traits that we really like, also carry these genetic issues. I have personally never owned a horse that I knew carried HYPP or a cow that I have been aware of was a carrier of TH/PHA. But I have owned market barrows that were stress positive and sows that were carriers. My absolute rule has always been that I would not even consider breeding a carrier to a carrier.  If I own a carrier it has to be one absolutely great specimen, if not it goes to the sale barn. There is no way, regardless of how good that I would ever breed something that carried any of these recessive traits in the homozygous state. And if I do decide that a carrier is good enough to breed they will absolutely be bred to something that I know for a fact is completely clean of the trait.
The problem comes that the positive traits that accompanies these negative traits are so desirable that people are willing to risk the negative to get the positive so they continue to breed them.  There are many who think all the heaviest muscle clubbies will at least be carriers. But I remember a time when the same thought went with HYPP and Stress, the heaviest muscled ones were carriers. But over time, testing, and selective breeding, there are HYPP negative horses with as much muscle as the HYPP carriers/positives and there are Stress Free pigs with as much muscle as the carriers/positives. While many breed associations will not register true positive animals, most all will register carriers, but the problem comes that we cant regulate the crosses. In the QH and Pig worlds education and clean breeding options have helped a lot. While we havent completely irradicated the issue, it is much less severe than it once was. I can only hope that the same thing happens soon in the cattle world.
 

aj

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Thats what the shame is on the th and pha deal. It drives such a wedge between the club calf deal and the beef industry. All this time and money pours into the deal and these defect cattle are useless out in the country. That really makes the clubbie deal look ridiculous.
 

rackranch

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Because if you are in the business to produce show cattle you want the power and hair that comes with the carriers... Thats how you make your living or a majority of your income and you don't care about the commercial side of the industry... It is pretty easy to stay away from the carriers if you are in the commercial industry or even a weekend cowboy... Isn't it ??  I would like to hear from some on this board who are commercial cattle men who have a problem with PHA and TH in their heard, why it happened, and where they feel they made their mistake...I would be willing to bet if you walk up to any sell barn in Texas and ask the guy unloading his cattle how many calves he had born with Pulmonary Hypoplasia With Anasarca this year he would look at you like you were from Mars...Is there really a problem out there??
 

flacowman

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No, there isn't a problem out in the "general population" of commercial cattle, that's exactly the problem.  It's yet another disconnect between the show side and real side.  We do both and stay away from genetic defects as a rule and have never really been hurt by a steer that wasn't a carrier.  I still firmly believe that in the case of TH and PHA animal welfare (our definition of it, not PETA's) should come first and we should attempt to breed it out of our cattle.  That's just my 2 cents though.
 

cbcr

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Our feeling is that it should be a moral obligation of every breeder NOT to breed with genetic defects.  What does breeding carrier animals say about the integrity of the cattle, not to mention some commercial breeders probably would be more apt not to use a breed maybe because they may not fully understand about TH and PHA but just unwilling to take a risk.

 

rackranch

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Thats an important issue in my opinion...

cbcr said:
Our feeling is that it should be a moral obligation of every breeder NOT to breed with genetic defects.  What does breeding carrier animals say about the integrity of the cattle, not to mention some commercial breeders probably would be more apt not to use a breed maybe because they may not fully understand about TH and PHA but just unwilling to take a risk.
 

SFASUshowman

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mark tenenbaum said:
One reason would be to produce clean ones-there are double clean bulls out of Warhorse.Monopoly,Heat Wave,Heat Seeker,Double Stuff,etc O0

Thats my point...when you get the double clean bull that is as good as the carrier bull, why continue to risk it by using the carrier bull? I dont have an issue with having carriers in the herd. One reason is that we will never all agree on if its morally wrong to breed carriers or not, so there are always going to be those out there willing to take risk, thus there will always be carriers around. My opinion is though that a carrier should ONLY be bred to a double clean animal. I dont think we will see it eradicated unless the USDA steps in, and thats not likely to happen unless it starts to affect more of the cattle industry. I just dont see it affecting more of the cattle industry, because most of your commercial breeders arent likely to have clubby type cattle in their herd.  So its always gonna be around, and there are always gonna be differing opinions on it!
 

R1Livestock

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This is 'Steerplanet'.

When it comes time to buy steers in the fall, do the buyers look at the TH/PHA status of the steer or the quality of the calf?  There's the answer.  You can speak of commercial this, clubby-that, until we are blue in the face.  More often than not TH begets more bone and hair, and bone and hair sells calves at this current time in the show steer industry.  Steer project buyers could care less about genetic status', they want good ones.  I know more than one buyer that seeks out TH carriers for their steer calves or at least wants them out of TH bulls.  Right or wrong, it's where we're at.
 

knabe

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cbcr said:
Our feeling is that it should be a moral obligation of every breeder NOT to breed with genetic defects.  What does breeding carrier animals say about the integrity of the cattle, not to mention some commercial breeders probably would be more apt not to use a breed maybe because they may not fully understand about TH and PHA but just unwilling to take a risk.

it is immoral to impose morality on others that don't agree to be in one's group.  that's why there's these things called associations.  if the association wants to make it a rule, then the members can choose to be moral or not.  on the other hand, the UN and the left and right are constantly trying to impose morality.  really annoying isn't it?  great when you agree with it, not so much when you don't.
 

rarebirdz

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one would hope dirty catttle would become a thing of the past but the reality is that in this part of the cattle industry their is a niche fo the traits that are common in the ones carrin the defect.  Unless the show ring changes what is fashinable there will be defect positive cattle
 

rarebirdz

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Zach said:
It is managable so why not have it?

why not get rid of it then? Tiger Woods is x2 clean and he is awsome. So if there is a x2 clean option why wuldn't we as clubby breeders use it? Could take us closer to the comercial end in the long run who nos
 

rarebirdz

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rarebirdz said:
one would hope dirty catttle would become a thing of the past but the reality is that in this part of the cattle industry their is a niche fo the traits that are common in the ones carrin the defect.  Unless the show ring changes what is fashinable there will be defect positive cattle

Dont think that told you how to run your program, was more aiming at the managable comment.  Also there was no mentioning morals so you officially went off the deep end for what appears to be no reason above is what I said before.
 

cbcr

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It should be part of any association policy to not allow animals that test positive into the registry.

I remember a several years ago that a Holstein bull came up as a positive carrier of Mulefoot disease.  The Holstein Association had a policy in place to deal with defective genes, but the bull was at Select Sires, he was one of the top bulls in the dairy industry.

It had always been a policy that when an animal came up with a defective gene, the animal and semen were disposed of.  But Select Sires chose greed of money over doing the right thing and kept the bull and still sold semen.  

While many breed association do have policies regarding genetic defects,  many Club Calf sires are not registered with any association, so they don't have to adhere to such rules, and there are breeders willing to take a risk and people  (some probably not knowing the difference) willing to buy.

While it is true that steers won't pass on defective genes, what about the females?  Is that what the industry wants or needs?

I have spoke with a few club calf breeders and have been told that club calves can perform just as well as other cattle,  but if club calf breeders wish to continue breeding carrier animals, there is another possible market that is being lost because commercial producers don't want to even take a chance of getting genetic defects into their herds.  But at the same time, commercial producers know very little to nothing about their herds.  It is very likely that some may have genetic defects in their herd that they don't even know about.  So why take a chance,  enough calves are lost from other reasons without adding genetic defects to the mix.
 

farmboy

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It would be impossible to eliminate 100% of carriers reguardless of the time and resources you may have. How many thousands of dollars do we have in the clubby industry riding around in THC heifers, cows, and Bulls. How many thousands of dollars worth of semen and eggs are sitting on ice right now? Its just a pipe dream.
 

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