Why continue to breed TH and PHA carriers?

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aj

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If you have to use genetic defect cattle to raise club calves that really pidgeon holes you. You are either a club calf person or you are not. You are either pregnant or you are not. Its not like it was years back before the th carriers were available. I am still waiting for a purebred Angus or Red Angus or Gelbvieh national heifer champion to show up as a th carrier. You know it is bound to happen. Herford or whatever. This will be an interesting bit of monkey bussiness exposed. ;D
 

flacowman

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When the test was first developed if TH and PHA cattle had been denied registry or showability back then it would be a null point now.  The fact that it has been allowed and encouraged is the real problem.  If we would put a stop to these bad practices as soon as they become apparent then it would never be a big deal.  And as for the eliminating cattle I had nearly an entire calf crop that I could not register of angus calves and found out most of my mama cows were nh carriers and I had used an nh bull unknowingly, I now own no carrier cattle of any TESTABLE genetic defect and with God as my witness never will again.  I think that it is just good cattle management not to encourage the potential loss of calves and cattle in the process of trying to get something that only seems better.  What good do the hair and bone that come along with th do for cattle at all other than win in a ring, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, and that is why I am 100% against knowingly mating carrier cattle, it helps the industry exactly none.

If I stepped on any toes I apologize, I was simply expressing my personal (and often flawed) opinion
 

R1Livestock

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the truth said:
Gators Rule said:
R1Livestock said:
This is 'Steerplanet'.

When it comes time to buy steers in the fall, do the buyers look at the TH/PHA status of the steer or the quality of the calf?  There's the answer.  You can speak of commercial this, clubby-that, until we are blue in the face.  More often than not TH begets more bone and hair, and bone and hair sells calves at this current time in the show steer industry.   Steer project buyers could care less about genetic status', they want good ones.  I know more than one buyer that seeks out TH carriers for their steer calves or at least wants them out of TH bulls.  Right or wrong, it's where we're at.

R1, that's actually the point.    Impressive breeders were the same way in the Quarter Horse industry.   The results of his breeding far outweighed the negative effects of his HYPP defect....in THEIR eyes.   It was a win at all cost philosophy... 

Yes, I understand this is SteerPlanet....but half of the matings of TH and/or PHA carrier bulls or cows result in a heifer, not a steer.    Do we honestly think all those heifers stay within the club calf industry? Something tells me no.


How many go to sale barns and are subsequently bought by unsuspecting commercial breeders?   Do we have to have an epidemic beforewe say it is a ethical issue?    I'mnot judging, but I am very curious.  I have never owned one, so I can only assume a TH/PHA carrier must be awesome!!    <rock>

I would almost put my money to say that very few of the straight, cripple legged club calf heifers who attend the market place, make it anywhere towards a commercial herd, or a bred heifer special buyer.  Buyers do not like to propagate those kinds of cattle- even if they are super cheap...  If they are sound, they'll be staying in someone's herd for a cow-- and most of the time even if they ain't- they'll stay too. 

I don't know of any (I'm sure there might be some, but I don't know of them, anyway) self-respecting commercially viable cattlemen who buy their replacements straight out of the sale barn.  If they do, they have a lot of problems coming their way, TH or PHA is the least of their worries.

I'm not saying that TH or PHA is awesome.  I'm saying as a producer trying to break into a market (show steers, specifically), TH is part of the game.  I'd truly love to see pictures of a Northern steer sale without a TH carrier in it.  Better yet, try finding any steer sale where every advertised sire has no TH carriers in their backgrounds.  Not going to happen.

Insinuating that people are mating carriers to carriers isn't playing fair.  I don't know anyone or have read anyone on here advocating breeding a carrier to a carrier.  If you don't breed a carrier to a carrier, it's not a LETHAL defect.  I'd assuage it's not a DEFECT at all, it's an enhancement, especially in show steers.  If a trait is beneficial, and can be proven so (let's say that it is empirically found that TH carrier steers average $XXX more per head than non-carriers), is it a really a defect in essence?

Bottom line, to me, is this--you do what works for you and I'll do what works for me.  Breeding all clean cattle would certainly put me somewhere in this industry really quickly--right out of it.  This whole deal is a game and every one can play it the way they want.  As I stated the commercial world isn't the clubby world and vise-versa, so a commercial guy running a clubby herd would be in a heap of trouble real quick like a clubby guy running commercials might be.  I just don't see why everyone has to pass judgement on everyone else.  If people aren't mating carriers to carriers, who is who to pass judgement on them for doing what they feel is necessary to make money or achieve whatever their goals may be?  If your goal is to help the future of the entire cattle industry, go for it.  But to expect everyone to jump on this train is rather idealistic.

One last caveat--you get the judges to start shying away from bone, hair and 'look' and TH will go away on its own after a while.  Good luck on that one.  It's show cattle.  It's extremes.  It's exemplars.  It'll swing some way sooner or later, it always does. 
 

knabe

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aj said:
You are either a club calf person or you are not.  why?

I am still waiting for a purebred Angus or Red Angus or Gelbvieh national heifer champion to show up as a th carrier. You know it is bound to happen. Herford or whatever. This will be an interesting bit of monkey bussiness exposed. ;D  wrong.  it's just a single point mutation, could happen anytime anywhere and have nothing to do with monkey business.
 

hamburgman

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correct Knabe, also isn't being polled considered a lethal defect in certain areas of Canada?
 

WB

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JTM said:
WB said:

Ok I probably should have stayed out of this, but decided to jump in.

Maybe SOMEDAY all breeds will be able to say you cant register calves that have PHA and TH.
But face up animals like Heatwave, Monopoly, Bojo, and Walks Alone who are all MAJORLY used, with a ton of succes (Granted Bojo and Walks Alone arent quite as legendary Heatwave and Monopoly. Yet.) All carry TH, if you just said no animals that carry TH can be registered or shown then you are going to send major major shockwaves through the multimillion dollar Clubbie industry... Also it would only matter if stock shows, I.E. Fort Worth, Denver, NAILE, Houston and so on decided that carriers would not be allowed to show.
I'm not sure if I agree that all carriers should be unable to be registered or not. Different breed associations are in different situations and they can either deal with not getting the registrations from carriers or they cant'. The Angus association can deal with it. I don't really agree that it would only matter if the stock shows disallowed carriers to show. They wouldn't need to change anything if the associations didn't allow carriers to be registered. They need the registration papers to get into the purebred show to begin with. I think if all the breed associations did this, it would definitely make the crossbreds even more at an advantage in the steer shows. I think this along with the loss of registrations is why it isn't done. We raise shorthorns and maines and I only have one th carrier cow left. We test all of her heifers and disclose before selling them. I don't buy carriers(at least knowingly) and I don't breed to any carrier bulls, never have(knowingly).



Sorry let me clear this up, I didnt mean that i thought that anytime soon they should change the rules about an animal being unable to be registered because of TH or PHA testing, and if someday they did decide to look into that it would need to be very well thought through.


And on my comment about it not mattering unless stock shows required testing, that  was meant  for steers... Not Registered animals.


Will
And again this is just my 2 Cents
 

SFASUshowman

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As I have said before, I dont think there is any reason to not allow carriers to register, I dont think there is anything wrong with having a carrier in your herd.  I think the best thing that breed associations can do is require potential carriers to be tested in order to register, and many of them that have problems with genetic defects either already do this or are in the process of implementing it.  I would agree that any animal that is Homozygous for a potentially lethal genetic defect should be banned from registration(just my opinion), but since TH/PHA are always lethal when homozygous we dont have to worry about that.  I think the biggest thing here is responsibility.  I would disagree with those that say no breeder is knowingly breeding a carrier to a carrier, not only do I believe that there are those out there willing to take that risk, I think we would be foolish to believe that some of them are not doing it. But I would say the majority of lethal calves are theresult of breedersnot being educated or iiresponsible. I think any responsible breeder who knew they had a potential carrier should either have that animal tested prior to breeding them or just assume they are carriers and just breed them to a clean animal. Or how many new breeders know that their heifer is a carrier and that the bull they want to use is a carrier, but never take the time to learn what that means so they go ahead and breed anyway? I think its a matter of being responsible and what risks your willing to take. Personally I am not in a position to be able to afford to risk that dead calf, but I want the best odds at a greatcalf, so I am going to spend the money to test a heifer before breeding her, that way I can make an informed decision.
Also like many others have said, we are never going to erradicate potentially genetic birth defects. They are gene mutations that can occur at any time.  So even if we erradicate them either the mutation can occur again or a new one can pop up to replace it at any point.  I dont think the focus should be so much on erradicating every potentially lethal mutation that shows up, but we should be focused on learning about and educating others how to properly manage  them as to prove the risk. 
And while I completely uderstand the point of view, my opinion is I am not convinced that TH/PHA status directly affects quality. I am not blind or stupid, I know that the vast majority of the "great ones" going in the show ring are either carriers or are out of carriers.  And I fully admit that it is completely possible that someday a geneticist my find a direct  genetic link between that mutated genes and the genes that affect the postive    traits such as hair, muschle and bone. I am just not totally convinced that that will happen yet,    I see the potential for it to, just not yet convinced that it will because I also see the potential for it going the other way, just like it did with HYPP in QH's and stress in pigs.  Many of the top breeders in those industries believer the same way about those issues  as many of us are viewing TH/PHA now.  And while I think its a little far fetched to say that they have since had success breeding HYPP negative horses or stress negative pigs, that were BETTER than the carriers and postives, I dont think it is at all far fetched that they have had success breeding negatives that are every bit as good as the positives. True most of them have carriers in their gene pool somewhere, but doesnt change the fact that they themselves are just as good and negative.  I still see potential for this happeing in the case of Th/PHA, and again I freely admit that I may be proven wrong someday, heck it may even be tommorow that a geneticist announces that he discovered that link, but it hasnt happened yet.
But most of all this MY opinion, I am not trying to shove it on anyone or berate anyone for  their point of view, because I can understand the point that all sides make.
 

aj

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Good point hamburg man! A bit of a stretch but valid. At least polled cattle live a while before a grizzlie brings em down.
 

aj

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knabe..........you either accept the validity of using th  cattle or you don't.  Wouldn't a new th showing up in the angus be a 1 in a million occurence. Whereas funny business would occur at a much higher rate?
 

Okotoks

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aj said:
knabe..........you either accept the validity of using th  cattle or you don't.  Wouldn't a new th showing up in the angus be a 1 in a million occurence. Whereas funny business would occur at a much higher rate?
In the past I think funny business and accidents were a lot more likely to happen than today with all the DNA testing that occurs. Most breed registries require DNA on AI sires and donor dams and a lot require DNA on all bulls. Why anyone would intentionally introduce a genetic defect into their breeds gene pool is a pretty mindboggling concept!
 

frostback

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aj said:
knabe..........you either accept the validity of using th  cattle or you don't.  Wouldn't a new th showing up in the angus be a 1 in a million occurence. Whereas funny business would occur at a much higher rate?

One could ask the same to you. AJ you either accept the validity of using TH cattle or you dont? Knabe speaks against it but actually practices what he preaches.
 

knabe

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aj said:
knabe..........you either accept the validity of using th  cattle or you don't.  Wouldn't a new th showing up in the angus be a 1 in a million occurence. Whereas funny business would occur at a much higher rate?

I accept it.  the odds are probably higher than 1 in a million. 

say you had a bull that was better than heatwave. 

would you sell semen for showcalves, or just purebred and commercial?

say that bull had a higher birth weight than you accept now would you still sell semen on him?
 

KSUwildcat2009

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TH affects a gene that is clearly critical in hind limb formation, so yes it is linked to the bone that you see in the carriers.  Pretty sure the geneticists have said this.  This gives reason for steer producers to use them.

Otherwise I'd have to venture to say that people are still using carrier animals to get that one great one that is clean.  Angus breeders are doing it to preserve their valuable bloodlines that turned up as AM and NH carrier lines.  You have all seen the CLEAN, CLEAN, CLEAN club calf bulls advertised.  It's a huge selling point.

There is no way to get rid of the alleles for good.  They will be floating around in cattle that will never come into contact with a registration paper or another carrier animal.  Moral of the story is it's your herd, manage it as you see fit as you've been educated on risks and know the payoffs.
 

aj

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Okytoks, I would see it happening something like this. Some club calf guy has a 3 quarter Angus quarter shorthorn. He fakes a pedigee and calls the bull registered Angus and sells them to party a. Party a uses the bull 2 years and gets 20 heifer calves out of him. One of these hf calves gets sold to some kid as a 4-h project cause the calf is pretty darn showy(a th carrier). This show calf now a cow gets sold to a third party. This cow calves again and a super heiefrer calf is produced. They don't even consider testing for th cause hell she's a purebred angus. This super heifer calf is spied by an up and coming Angus breeder. They breed the female. A super super bull calf is born and wins the national champion Angus bull in Denver. They sell a semen interest in him and somehow the calf comes back a th carrier. I could see this happening very easy. Cattle get traded. Then an honest breeder raises a th angus calf without knowing it. All because a club calf guy pulled the fast on to sell a 3,000$ bull calf. Now who gets sued on a deal like this. By now the original club calf guy is dead. Most of the original females are dead. And you have these mysteries. There were so many weird dead ends in the pha deal. Apparently some papers were wrong. The wrong cattle get blamed when they were not at fault. That pha was a hell of a deal to try and figure out cause so many registration papers were wrong(honest or dishonest) mistakes.
 

mark tenenbaum

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Well-I just did an admiration post about Young Money-who goes back to 2 carriers who consistently pass on th-and or both-EYE CANDY-and DOUBLE VISION-hes freaky clubby looking-(with the usual fitting help) and pretty fronted-and hairy as any-and a blue roan-but hes double kleen-leaves something to be said about freedom of choice-but there again-gotta like clubby cattle to appreciate him O0 O0
 

aj

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Read the book "The battle of the bull runts". Fascinating book about crooked paths and dead end pedigrees. The guys actually loosened the one Herford breeder up with a high $ bottle of scotch one night. He literally pulled two pedigrees out of a hole in his wall(covered by a painting). With this help they went on tracing the dwarfism deal.
 

DLD

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I guess really it doesn't matter much since I know most of this discussion is really about TH carriers (Heat Wave et al), but it seems to me that so many folks link TH and PHA together like they were the same thing.  Fact is they're very different, despite the the fact that there have been plenty of double carriers... Anyway, what I'm trying to get around to is that it seems to me that although the TH carrier market seems alive and well, the PHA deal is not so much.  Yes, I know there are still a handful of PHA carrier bulls being promoted, but they don't seem to be real popular.  I'm sure there are a couple of reasons for this, the first being that alot of folks associate TH carriers with bone and hair while PHA hasn't been linked to a particular phenotype, secondly because alot of folks view PHA as being potentially lethal to not only the calf but the cow as well while they tend to believe that with TH the cow isn't as much risk. Then again, it could be that the efforts of breed associations and some of the leading MA breeders who were promoting alot of PHA positive cattle but aren't any longer, actually is paying off.  One way or another, I think PHA is becoming much less prevalent, and I really don't know that it's right to keep saying there's not any progress being made in getting in getting rid of it.
 

Gators Rule

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the truth said:
I would almost put my money to say that very few of the straight, cripple legged club calf heifers who attend the market place, make it anywhere towards a commercial herd, or a bred heifer special buyer.  Buyers do not like to propagate those kinds of cattle- even if they are super cheap...  If they are sound, they'll be staying in someone's herd for a cow-- and most of the time even if they ain't- they'll stay too. 

We're not talking about the straight crippled legged club calf heifers.  I suspect there are a LOT of TH carrier heifers that end up in commercial herds.  Say someone is breeding for clubbies for their kids and/or neighbor kids.  Kids grow up, so they sell the heifers (now cows) to a commercial guy...OR someone new to the club calf industry because they have kids becoming of age.  It may be hard to believe, but there are still a lot of folks who have no idea that TH exists...or they take them to the sale barn because prices are so high right now.    Also, when those TH cows get old...what do we do with them?  Eat them because they have TH (or PHA)?  I think this is unlikely, so I would think a lot of folks will pass them on to the sale barn, where a lot will end up in small herds.  All are not headed to slaughter houses....unlease we're wearing rose colored glasses.
 

rarebirdz

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lets go back to before we new there was a problem.  TH/PH carriers were sold to various people, heifers bulls they went out there.  They have offspring the affspring have affspring it just takes one TH/Ph bull to cross accross a th/ph carrier cow to have a disaster.

Now we all no they exist and have a test to manage it, but due to the fashion TH remains popular. i have to admit when I see a double clean promotional sire I take a close look since if we can get the type without the defect that would be awesum 
 
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