Why doesn't the Shorthorn breed have a epd for stayability.

[aj]

If the number one economical factor for the commercial cattleman is stayability......why doesn't the breed have one? I think it was Bolzes number one goal when he was ceo. I think it insane that a maternal breed does not have one. Does the membership not want one? Is there some way we could push for one? Maybe a 5 year plan to set it up and educate the membership on what it is.......then implement it? I realize the showring people may be against it but I thought I'd throw it out there. Surely in the next 50 years we could get one implemented.

 

[Doc]

I would probably say that one problem would be not everyone is on whole herd. Until I went WHR, I didn't always take a cow off my inventory. When I went to WHR there was some cows that had been dead for 5 years or more. On WHR you either remove them or you pay (literally).

 

[aj]

The Red Angus breed is a mandatory performance reporting breed so I guess that would be equivilent to Mandatory whole herd reporting in the Shorthorn deal.

 

[aj]

As a "intellectual exercise"...........and one was to develop a stayability epd...........and it required mandatory data recording for the American Shorthorn Association......how would you get there. Would it be a board of directors deal? Could it be put to vote by membership? At first I didn't like the whole herd reporting deal...but if it means getting a stayability deal maybe thats what should be considered.  I think that when the Red Angus breed was formed it was a mandatory performance deal in its charter. Is black angus mandatory performance?

 

[frostback]

http://www.shorthorn.org/contactus/main_jcontactus.html

 

[coyote]

I was wondering if Steerplanet had an EPD for stayability?

 

[wiseguy]

I think a stayability EPD is a great option to have if we are trying to reach a commercial market. However, I also think that it is not anything that a lot of "shorthorn Breeders" would even consider. I mean can you imagine the numbers on a clubby deal, or even something that is trump on trump.  I sincerely doubt that even if it was pushed that it is something that could be completed in the near future. That being said I hope that I am wrong and this is something they have been working on much like the $CEZ and $BMI. The association has really surprised me in a positive way as of lately.

 

[aj]

In the decesion of on the case for the "Shorthorn breeds relevence in the beef industry".............I rest my case.

 

[aj]

Sorry...I missed your post coyote....last I knew I am the original oldest poster on the board. Thanks.

 

[oakview]

It would be very difficult to develop any reliable measure for stayability.  What would the standards be?  How could you compare the ability of a cow to survive in Alberta versus Florida?  I suppose you could come up with some figure based on the number of calves a cow produces, the frequency of production, quality of production based on offspring performance data, but there are so many variables.  Some people like to speed up their generation intervals, keeping a cow only for a few years before turning the herd.  Some will keep a cow until she drops.  As for bulls, even more problems could arise in coming up with a meaningful stayabiliby measure.  Do you keep your herd bulls for 3 years or 10?  Do you breed 15 cows or 75?  Do you pen breed or pasture breed?  Does the bull run with the cows year round?  Yes, I've seen this.  In my opinion, stayability data would be far too objective to be meaningful.  I would suggest buying a bull with a dam that has been a good producer for a number of years under similar conditions that you have.  You also have the most valuable information on how females produce for you right on your own farm.  Keep the replacements from the lines that produce the best for the longest period of time.  In my opinion, it would be nearly impossible to come up with stayability standards that would be reliable on a breed wide basis.

 

[NHR]

http://www.bifconference.com/bif2006/pdfs/Brigham.pdf

 

[RyanChandler]

It would be very difficult to develop any reliable measure for stayability.  What would the standards be?  How could you compare the ability of a cow to survive in Alberta versus Florida?  I suppose you could come up with some figure based on the number of calves a cow produces, the frequency of production, quality of production based on offspring performance data, but there are so many variables.  Some people like to speed up their generation intervals, keeping a cow only for a few years before turning the herd.  Some will keep a cow until she drops.  As for bulls, even more problems could arise in coming up with a meaningful stayabiliby measure.  Do you keep your herd bulls for 3 years or 10?  Do you breed 15 cows or 75?  Do you pen breed or pasture breed?  Does the bull run with the cows year round?  Yes, I've seen this.  In my opinion, stayability data would be far too objective to be meaningful.  I would suggest buying a bull with a dam that has been a good producer for a number of years under similar conditions that you have.  You also have the most valuable information on how females produce for you right on your own farm.  Keep the replacements from the lines that produce the best for the longest period of time.  In my opinion, it would be nearly impossible to come up with stayability standards that would be reliable on a breed wide basis.

I don't see how this standard would be any harder to attain than the standards for any of the other epds.  You make valid points but the fact is bw, ww, yw, ce, mce and so on are all compared to all Shorthorn cattle regardless to location (and hopefully here in the near future, there will be a common base that ALL cattle are compared to). That being said, I don't know how this epd would be any different.  They are all subjected to the same variables- both environmental and managerial variations.

If the shorthorn breed wants some legitimacy in the commercial sector- then mandatory performance reporting is the first step to take.  It's appalling that you can record an animal in the ASA without even so much as a recorded birthweight. We need mandatory ce, bw,ww,and yw recording to even be eligible to register a calf.

 

[cornish]

mandatory reporting is one thing. but being asked or required to pay for that service is another. 

why should the producer who registers 10% of his calf crop be forced to pay, (or register) 100% of it. 

Why should I pay a fee to basically register every bull calf born- even if his goal from day one- is to be on my plate.

If madatory WHR membership and payment is required-- count me out. I'll quite registering them and let those genetics fall by the wayside. 

I'm all for reporting BW, WW, YW, and other data on every animal though. 

But back to a question- what can you demand and require of people--- the US is a free country.

 

[Mill Iron A]

This is a free country but if you CHOOSE to be a part of something then you have to abide by the rules.  If you have a problem with it the way to voice your opinion is to the leadership of your breed and by presenting your case with logical reasons and facts.  If your intent with a registered animal is that it will be on you plate then don't have that animal registered.  Mandatory or THR is the only way to progress and put any kind of value in E.P.D.s.  Don't think of it as "making" you register an animal that you don't want registered.  Think of it as keeping your cow registered and her data continuing.  The stayability epd is good there is no doubt but like any epd it is only a reference.  I've seen cattle that were sound as could be and big ribbed have poor Stayability and I've also seen a cripple have a stayability epd in the top 10% of the breed.  Like I said just like any other epd it is just a reference.

 

[wiseguy]

I don't know if I am a fan of mandatory reporting on all animals, but I think that it should be mandatory to report on all animals that are registered. The point I have is that probably 90% of our bulls are cut and fed out. This is simply because we don't have a strong bull market due to location. Therefore, why should I have to pay to register that calf? On the otherhand if we want this breed to progress maybe we need to make WHR the only option. I think I have confused myself ???

 

[aj]

I don't know how the Red Angus fee's are set up. Maybe the stayability would be the kind of deal that would have to be put up for a vote and defeated a couple times before it would go through. The additional fees are a concern. I doubt it would ever pass but if it was out there matbe 20 years from now they could get it through.

 

[oakview]

I can easily read wieghts on a scale, but I am not sure how I would accurately rate the "stayability": of an animal.  It is correct that weights by themselves have less validity than we would like due to environmental and other factors.  The best decisions based on performance would be from animals handled in the same manner on the same farm under the same conditions.  After reading the data from the stayability report, I would agree with the conclusion that much more study needs to be done.  Too many variables for me.  I don't think color should be a valid reason for lowering a cow's stayability index. 

 

[knabe]

are you talking about the animals or the breeders?

 

[aj]

I am sold on the Red Angus stayability epds. But have 20 times the numbers to work with then the shorts. To me the stayability is determined by all kinds of factors under range conditions. Dispositions,poor pelvic measurements, fleshing ability, not being a fence crawler, udders, ability to adapt to enviroments,fertility, and who knows what. If a cow fails on traits that are related to staying around they tend to disappear will other lines stay around. I think high stayability numbers means problem free. It is one of what 20 traits to select for? For  maternal breeds I would think that it would be one of the top three traits to select for at least. There was an article in the Shorthorn country where data has been acumulated that the industry is having a hard time keeping cows flushing out as three year olds. Cows with to much milk? To much mature size. Not enough mineral? If there are lines that are terrible at stayability then this would show up. Can you tell by looking at an animal in a showring and REALLY know how they would perform in the Industry?

 

[cornish]

does that include docility? 

Around here the wildest, craziest ones-- also tend to be the most problem free, maintenance free, most do-it-your-selfers on the place. 

But I'm not exactly selecting for that trait...