Wondering what to breed my shorthorn/Simmental cross with?

[lauren101]

She's 1/2 shorthorn(K-Kim Castlerock), 1/2 Simmental. Registered as a Shorthorn Plus. I would like to breed her back to shorthorn, so that the calf's calves could be registered as Shorthorn.
She was born in Nov. '08 from K-Kim. She finally just had her first calf in July, we put her with a Limousin bull that the neighbor's have because breeding her AI wouldn't ever take.
She's a pretty small cow, and her calf ended up being a decent size...around 60-70pounds. I delivered him, I had to pull him out...it would have taken her a lot longer if I hadn't been there.

So I'm looking for a bull with pretty easy calving, but I also am hoping to have a decent calf I can keep to breed(if it's a heifer, or sell it if it's a bull).

I was looking at Jake's Proud Jazz at first....but then saw JSF Capiche, I really liked him because he has sexed semen for heifers at a place close to me. About a year ago somebody recommended I breed her to A&T Captain Obvious, they said he had low birth weight calves and usually were bull calves.
But I read some good things about TM Gus on here also...


I attached pictures of her the day she had her calf, a few weeks before her calf, and one of her cleaned up a little at a show a couple years ago.  I don't have any recent pictures of the calf..but he is 3 months now.
She never did really awesome(but she never was the worst), but I had a lot of fun showing her. And I would like to see some of the calves she can produce. I got her by doing the Houston Calf Scramble.

 

[leanbeef]

Saying the calf was "a decent size" at birth implies the calf was not small, and 60-70 pounds is pretty small! Based on what the calf looks like in the picture and the fact you had to help delved him, my guess is he actually weighed considerably more than 70 pounds. I'm not trying to be hard on you, and it's not a super important peice of this equation, but it does change the overall scenario just a little. To start, if you have to pull a 60-pound calf that isn't abnormally presented (like backwards or sideways), then my biggest concern would not be what to breed the cow back to. It would be when to get rid of her! If we're actually talking about a 90 pound calf & not a 60-70 pound calf, then your cow might contribute a little birth weight. It's a good management practice to actually weigh the calf within about 12-24 hours after birth.

As far as choosing a sire, it makes sense to choose a Shorthorn based on your thinking about registering the offspring. You mentioned not being able to get her AI bred as a heifer...I'm curious if you have a better game plan for getting her bred this time around? Heat detection is very, very important, and obviously so is having a competent, available technician. Btw...it might be worth mentioning that you could also register a calf sired by a Simmental bull, even if the cow isn't registered with the Simmental association. The calf would be 1/2 Simmental, 1/4 COMMERCIAL Simmental, 1/4 Shorthorn, and you would want to check into ASA's TraitTrac system before getting too far along with that. You would have to test your cow for TH & PHA if she hasn't been tested because of her Shorthorn blood.

Because of that & because of her color pattern, and coupled with the fact that you can register the calf as Shorthorn, I would continue on the track you're on. Good luck.

 

[mainegirl]

Would just like to start out saying she is a gorgeous cow. From the pictures it looks like she continued to get better for you. You said you could never get her AI'd as a virgin heifer. Was she cystic? Remember that it is the most difficult to get a 1st calver bred back than a virgin heifer or mature cow. The only Shorthorn bull that I have personally used (and with great success) from your list is Jake's Proud Jazz and I think he would work well on your cow. BUT, keep in mind he did just bite the dust and semen prices increased. I'm not sure how concerned you are with semen prices but with the 2 factors I mentioned above, you might have a difficult time getting her to catch the 1st go around.

From what I have read through SP, Gus and Captain Obvious sound like good bulls. Hopefully, someone on here with some experience with these bulls can give you more advice on them. Good Luck with your picking and from the looks of that calf, your neighbor has a nice Limousin bull. Would love to see a more recent photo of that calf! He looks like a good one!

 

[Okotoks]

I would have to agree with leanbeef that the calf looks a lot bigger than 60 to 70 lbs. Is it possible to make arrangements to have the cow bred to a Shorthorn bull naturally with someone in your area?
If your looking for a lighter BW then Proud Jazz or Captain Obvious should both work. Is there someone in your area with a successful AI program you can consult with?

 

[OLD WORLD SHORTIE]

Looks like a good looking female to me. As far as the whole helping her out on her first calf, i dont blame you for helping her out with the ordeal. Although that does not necessarily mean that she is going to have trouble on the next calf. So i don't actually understand your high concern to breed her to a low birth weight bull this next time around. I'm right there with you on helping out a show heifer and breeding one to a low birth weight bull on the first calf, but after that first one they should be able to breed to an average birth weight bull with a high daily gain factor and calve with little to no assistance.

As far as picking a bull i guess its okay if you go with JPJ, A&T Captain Obvious, TM Gus, or JSF Capiche if you want to save your self the worrying about what size calf she is gonna have. Have used some of these bulls i can tell you they would make for good calves, but don't rule out MAV BellRinger or MAV Charisma as they would also make for good low birth weight calves with lots of style. Just make sure you are breeding to TH & PHA Free bulls and save yourself the genetic testing until she becomes a super cow and you start flushing her. ;D

If you want to line breed her shorthorn from the Castle Rock side I would go with ACE of Diamonds as he bring the JM Vortec  and CF Trump back into the lineage. Probably what i would do since she has calved before.

Did i read this incorrectly are you registering her next calf as a  Shorthorn?  Cause I dont think that is possible as her next calf would be a 3/4 blood. To register Shorthorn you would have to have a 15/16 and this would not happen until the 3rd generation of breeding to shorthorn bulls. So your next calf would be a ShorthornPlus.

@mainegirl The price of JPJ did not go up at Cattlevisions.com just that exective sires guy trying to run up the cost on hearing of JPJ's passing. Belive me there is a lot of JPJ semen out there so i'll just continue to buy from cattlevisions.com and wont deal with price gouging.  :

 

[shortii]

I would try Sonny deuce. I have been very happy with my sonny deuce calves, none of them have been big calves at birth but they all had plenty of growth to them.

 

[lauren101]

I didn't think I would get so many replies!

I was told that Simmentals mature slower, so this might have added to her having trouble getting pregnant. From what I remember she didn't have cysts ever, but I think she was treated for them once before we took her to be AI'ed.
We tried her with AI, I think three times, the first time she was really too young and we were not told this until after... Second time, she was really fat(the vet told us, we had an ultrasound done on her to be sure). Third time, she could have taken the AI...but my ag teacher had some conflicts with me and decided to have me put her in the back pastures at our ag barns alone(it was winter, and storming...sure she is a Shorthorn cross and we live in TX, but it was pretty stressful because she was alone away from the other cattle she had been with since she was 4months old).

The calf may have weighed more, I agree...he was pretty heavy. She just had trouble getting his head out, after that he slipped on out. But I do admit I have seen smaller calves. I was pretty surprised at his size. I'm not very good at guessing weight...
But weighing him afterwards wasn't an option. I tried to get near him, and she sent me through the mud(she wouldn't leave his side either)....Usually she is a very docile cow.

I plan to have her calves, when she is bred back to Shorthorn, registered as Shorthorn Plus, I know that the calves would still have to be bred back again to be Shorthorn.

JPJ semen is 30$ a straw from where we order from. Sexed Capiche semen is 50$ a straw.

I can try to get some pictures up of the calf now.


I'm really leaning towards JSF Capiche because of the sexed semen, and I do like the look of him.
He is one of the only ones that has sexed semen from where I order from, Bovine Elite.

 

[sue]

Naturally I lean tword captain
I know of two sons of captain working in simm/angus herds ? Results are good bulls are still working . the calves are smooth thick and deep ... your female is really good shouldered and I like the udder too.  Here are pics of triple and double bred captain calves out of Angus x shorthorn captain daughters.  I just posted these on facebook. pictures were taken Aug 9th.

Triple bred  5/8 short 3/8 angus. she is on a first calf captainx angus female

 

[sue]

Calf is double bred Captain . Dam is a  08' Captain x angus. pic taken aug 9th. calf was born apr 12.

 

[Davidsonranch]

For fun Jakes Blue Moon.  Not sure if he would get calf to % shorthorn or not?  But I've wanted to try him and may be cool on that cow!

 

[sue]

For fun Jakes Blue Moon.  Not sure if he would get calf to % shorthorn or not?  But I've wanted to try him and may be cool on that cow!

I heard good things about Jake's Blue Moon too- however I dont know if he is papered? Either way Lauren101 would end up with a 50% short ... really depends if she needs a paper in the end.?

 

[ruhtram]

I think blue moon would match up well with your cow.. Best of luck!

 

[kidsandkows]

I would say also that the first calf is bigger than 70 lbs. I have done the same thing though thinking oh thats an average calf and when I started weighing I was shocked. So you probably have more options if you care to venture out to more average birthweights.

I will say that I have used Capiche have a heifer from him now she is real stylish. she is out of a first calf heifer, she was 86 lbs and we pulled her but it was probably moms genetics coming thru on that one. If you like Capiche you should feel real comfortable using him. I like this heifer i have out of him. She has great bone and a really pretty head and neck. So that is my experience. Have fun, and good luck.

 

[Davidsonranch]

Ya I wasn't sure if Jake's Blue Moon was registered either.  Just thought it would be a cool cross to consider.  I plan on trying him next year. I know he is reported to be heifer safe.  Also look at his brother Unbelievabull

 

[lauren101]

I like the look of Jake's Blue Moon, but I think I want to go with a bull that is Shorthorn this time around. Plus, not really sure where I would get semen from Blue Moon?

Not sure how much my cow weighed when she was born, it says 80 on her papers. It could have been her that affected his birth weight, cause all of the calves born next door are a lot smaller than my bull calf was when he was born. There was a bull calf born in their pasture the same day mine was born, and he looked really tiny. I thought it was just cause my cow got fed better than their pasture cows...


I was wondering also if my cow's dam was registered with the Simmentals or Simmental cross would it show on my cow's papers even though she was registered to Shorthorn Plus? I think her damn was actually 3/4 Simmental and not sure what the other 1/4 is, I assume it was Shorthorn because they described her as "blood cream" colored on the ad for my cow. I still have the ad printed out from the internet, from when I got her ;D
On her papers though it just says "407 SIM" for her dam.


I still have awhile for deciding a bull, I'm not breeding her until November, hoping I can get a calf born in a better month for showing... So if anybody else has any other bulls they would like to suggested I will definitely look them up

 

[kidsandkows]

We also had a bull calf that we are going to keep as a cleanup bull out of Jazzman. Really like this bull calf lots of bone and hair. This year we AI'ed our shorthorns to Damn Proud and Tobasco. Tobasco was who we AI'ed our second calver to.

 

[lauren101]

We also had a bull calf that we are going to keep as a cleanup bull out of Jazzman. Really like this bull calf lots of bone and hair. This year we AI'ed our shorthorns to Damn Proud and Tobasco. Tobasco was who we AI'ed our second calver to.

Jazzman? Do you mean JPJ? Or is Jazzman a different bull?



~~~

I got some pictures of my bull calf today. Not very good he didn't want to cooperate. He's not broke yet...haven't been around him very much, but I probably should soon he is getting huge...I'm worried I'll break him though, and then nobody will want him. So I'll have "wasted" my time getting him broke... It's always good character building for kids to get calves and have to break them though  ;D

 

[Davidsonranch]

So "I think" Jake's Blue Moon is a cross between a OCC angus cow and JPJ right?  Anyone.  I thought he was being carried by a couple distributors?

 

[mark tenenbaum]

TM Gus IS good but is NOT CALVING EASE-The following are proven for years or proven-and all are also showyand clean,and I feel they wou-ld work well on Simmi-x breeding.:ALM Surf,ALM,Chiller,Gb Daybreak Express, Gizmo,Brad Davis in Iowas has 2: A white Proud Jazz out of Fringes dam-hes good and CE,and UB DMCC TOP FUEL,good and calving ease,posted a couple weeks ago,3;Tequila(OK but not a hiefer bull) ,4;Abertees Rock and Roll Train-Proven,5;Abertess Professor-ditto,AND-Arsulu Osage,Arsulu Massive,Diamonds (Canada) bulls,The roanBuster Canadian bull of B-Good Livestock,Muridale Buster2nd,Jazz sons-JSF Addicted,JSF The One,SS Rock On:JSF Dakota Sunrise MAV Bellriger,MAVCharisma,-(these 2 DEFINITELY need a look)and others-ALL of these but the b-good bull(avail. at(Hawakeye) are available either at Genetic Hoeizens,or Cattle Visions-and Its worth 50-60 bucks to ship semen and get a good calf. O0

 

[lauren101]

I was looking around a bit at information on Jake's Blue Moon. I think I saw a couple places that have his semen.


I'll definitely look up those bulls, thanks. I'll see which ones Bovine Elite carries..I saw a couple names that look familiar.




Any thoughts on the calf? Need better pictures to tell?